10,000 Lost Comments on Unnecessary Pap Smears Find a New Home

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Blogger 12:49 am on July 12, 2013 Permalink Reply
Tags: Cervical cancer ( 2 ), comments on unnecessary pap smears, Pap test ( 3 ), unnecessary pap smears ( 3 ), Women's health
10,000 Lost Comments on Unnecessary Pap Smears Find a New Home
More than 10,000 comments on Bookofjoe’s “Unnecessary Pap Smears” article were displaced following changes to Blogcritics. The Blogcritic’s site (http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/) had been home to a group of informed women who contributed information and shared personal experiences about pap smears, cervical cancer, and other women’s health issues. Some of the women had been contributors on Blogcritics for years, and for some as many as eight years. The site provided a safe haven for women seeking truthful information and shelter from the misinformation and misconsent that can go hand in hand with women’s health care experiences.

Through the years more than 10,000 comments had accumulated. The comments disappeared from the site during the transfer to a new format more than a month ago, and have not yet reappeared. However, they had been relocated to a different site by someone (unknown, and who we will be forever thankful to) where they were still accessible for those dedicated to finding them. The temporary site where the comments were being kept has since disappeared.

Fortunately, the original comments had been copied into three word documents by Chas before they were lost for good. The comments have been reposted on this site where hopefully they will remain safe for years to come. The reposting is done under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial license endorsed by the original Blogcritics site (http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/), which allows users to copy the works on the site for non-commercial use.
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Kijk maar Terminator Dark Fate Gratis online (@Terminator6_nl) op Twitter, Lovella Fantroy, FrankCup, and 6 others are discussing. Toggle Comments
- Blogger 6:20 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2000 – Jeanine (UK)
  Sep 24, 2010 at 11:54 pm
  Hexanchus (US),she had a stage 4 cancerous tumor and they managed to remove the lot before it spread.
  
  i fail to understand how when she is a 70 year old woman with a tumour the size of a golf ball, but hey, they claim shes in the clear so who’m I to judge?
  the only thing she seems to have suffered so far is being less mobile- she can still walk etc but it takes longer than usual. This is something to do with where the tumour was, it affected her mobility.
  
  as for smears, i’ll have a read up thru this entire blog.
  
  • 2001 – Jeanine (UK)
  Sep 24, 2010 at 11:55 pm
  sorry, i meant to say a tennis ball not golf ball. this “thing” grew in a space of 3 months… just came outta nowhere suposidly
  
  • 2002 – Beth (UK)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 12:38 am
  I think because some women have been saved by pap tests, doctors have always focused on that…and harm to healthy women was forgotten and because of the numbers they needed to screen to achieve anything, informed consent was dismissed (for women). The fact those in charge thought it was fine to risk our health to save a very small number of women without our permission and with scant misleading information is a crime I can never forgive and turning our doctors against us.
  MY faith and respect in the medical profession has been forever damaged…doctors are the enemy with a handful of exceptions.
  I agree with others that men would never, ever be treated this way and prostate cancer IS rampant.
  You have to remember huge numbers of women have been forced or deceived into penetrative vaginal exams and painful, harmful biopsies or other procedures and that makes it worse. Slicing off pieces of the hand would be bad enough, but to the most private part of our body with cavalier disregard for our rights and health is impossible to forgive or understand.
  
  It says to me: women don’t matter.
  
  I think the payments to doctors have also fed into the skewed thinking and unfair focus.
  It is time to fight back, I don’t test, but I’m determined to inform as many women as possible. More women are listening to me and asking for copies of references.
  That’s a great sign.
  One by one women are finding out…here’s hoping in 2 years time only women who want to screen and have given their express informed consent are participating in this program and may all women have free and easy access to contraception.
  The world of wounded women united in this fight – all women have been wounded in some way, from the rudeness of doctors right through to the poor women who lose babies through an incompetent cervix.
  It’s about dignity, respect, fairness and the right to be treated as adults – to self-determination.
  
  • 2003 – Katrina (UK)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 4:40 am
  Ah, Mary, I never answered your question!
  There was no mention of the Mirena, she just suggested having ‘the coil’ fitted. She was probably referring to the Mirena, since it’s common knowledge that most IUD’s can make bleeding worse… but my GP’s aren’t the sharpest tools in the box.
  Anyway, I was not impressed! Aside from the fact that there was NO WAY I was having a foreign object fitted inside me, she didn’t try to find out WHY my bleeds had suddenly changed so drastically. But I suppose it’s standard practice to just take a guess and hope that the drugs help.
  
  On a side note, I went with a friend to see one of these geniuses only a few weeks ago – she had chronic cystitis, she’d tried all the usual remedies, but it wouldn’t budge. So off we went for some antibiotics.
  Well, I walked in first and told the quack that my fried had persistent cystitis.
  He then went into a long explanation of what cystitis was (yes, we KNOW all that! Grrr) and as we were leaving he told her drinking lots of water would help to flush the bacteria out.
  Well, I’d held my tongue up until then, but really! I told him it was a good preventative measure, but there was no evidence to suggest that it helped once you have the condition, and besides – how exactly was she was supposed to ‘flush’ the little buggers out when they were preventing her from emptying her bladder in the first place? He looked a little confused, I must say, like that thought had never occurred.
  1-0 to me, I think. XD
  
  • 2004 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 5:22 am
  Thanks for answering Katrina, Funny that she would suggest “the coil” when BCPs fix that problem most of the time. Looks like she saw your problem as just another sales opportunity. From what I’ve read about the Mirena you would be having more bleeding for at least 6 months before it stopped. So how is that a solution? I’m on a bit of a mission to figure out what’s going on with the Mirena, because suddenly all doctors are in love with the Mirena and it’s the best thing since sliced bread. I hear a lot of women say “the doctor was really pushing me to get the Mirena”. But I’m with you. Why would I what a foreign object in my body? I wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole. And if pap smears aren’t degrading enough, inserting IUDS are even worse. That’s another reason why I’m buying my BCPs online now. To avoid pap smears and to avoid the Mirena sales pitch which I have already received from my GP. The b@$tard only gave me 3 months supply of the BCP and told me I should think about something more permanent. Excuse me? That was after he extolled the virtues of the Mirena and I refused it and demanded the BCP. He is probably waiting for me to come back but he has lost me for life. Isn’t it sad that the doctor-patient relationship has come to this. More and more of us are just ordering our own drugs online because we are so disillusioned with doctors and can’t trust them.
- Blogger 6:21 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2005 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Sep 25, 2010 at 6:51 am
  We have to get word out that women have EASY ACCESS to buying birth control pills online. That would put a stop to the majority of useless gynecological appointments just to get a prescription.
  
  • 2006 – Graeme NZ
  Sep 25, 2010 at 7:12 am
  Hi guys sorry I havent posted for a while have been beset with my own problems in the form of cluster headaches. I have read the blog regularly and have been doing a lot of research. Here is a disgraceful example: hope this link works. http://blogcritics.mcercado.mtv-dev03.technorati.com/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-41/www.hag.unimaas.nl/Huisartsopleiding/Pediatrics 2001 Hymen.pdf Pay special note to the way families were paid. They all got $25 and non abused girls were given a colouring book on sexual abuse prevention.(Wow) Basically their hymens were evaluated, photoed and measured to gather statistics about hymen states in abuse cases. Imagine families selling their 9 yr old daughters for this paltry sum. The doctors who did the exams should be in jail for a long time. This article needs to be forwarded to the usa authorities so that arrests can be made. I am so angry. My daughter is 9. Let me know if the link doesnt work and I will make another plan to get it to you. I can say your blood will run cold!
  
  • 2007 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 2:03 pm
  It’s doesn’t work Graeme.
  
  • 2008 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 2:25 pm
  On the “I hate doctors” blog by Dr bertstein there is a post from a woman who had a genital inspection when she was 9. Here is how she is today.
  ”
  I fu@#$!g hate all doctors especially pediatricians. I think all pediatricians should fu@#$!g die!!!
  When I was 9 years old I was forced into a genital exam at an annual physical. I was not sick in any way, no symptoms anywhere, and had never been abused/violated by anyone until I was abused and violated by the pediatrician and my mother in that doctor office. I was not told what the doctor wanted to do so I was not given the chance to say “NO”!!! But then again kids have no rights at all!! All kids now are forced into genital exams at annual physicals even when they are not having problems in that area.
  The doctor told me to lie down, he removed my underwear leaving me completely naked on the table and spread my legs wide open and my mother just sat there an watched. I was absolutely horrified and humiliated and violated!!! I hope you fu@#$!g all got a good thrill out of it! My mothers response to me being upset about it, as is the attitude of the entire medical community is that “you’ll get over it”. Well I never fu@#$!ing did you fu!@#g ass@#$les. I have never let another doctor near my private parts again and refuse to undress below shorts and a bra. I had decided on that day that I fu!@#g hate my mother and all doctors, I would never have a baby …and never have, nor do I have any desire to. I would stand outside my mothers bedroom door at 9 and 10years old with a steak knife thinking that I should kill her for what she and the doctor did to me (and I amost did), but I ended up beating up and bullying a lot of kids over the years. It sickens me to know that every child on this planet is being medically abused/molested/violated and have no dignity/civil rights to say no. The “lucky” ones are coerced (another form of force)into having their legs spread wide open when they aren’t even sick and are traumatized by the whole idea. The unlucky ones like me, are forced into it.”
  
  • 2009 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 2:31 pm
  Dr Bernstein replies to her post:
  “Genital exam is a standard part of the pediatric WELL visit exam as it can be a clue to endocrine disorders.
  
  These posts just scream to me how badly we need more mental health care in the country. ”
  The poster then replies:
  “How F!@#$ing dare you call ME “sick”. You a@!holes caused the trauma I experienced as a child. When are you pediatricians/doctors going to F!@#$ing get it as to why so many people hate doctors!!! You don’t treat your patients (mostly children and women) with respect concerning this subject (and other subjects)…privacy of the genital area and the right to not being violated against our will in one form or another by YOU!!! And because you are being called out on something (in this case something more specific)…again you disrespect and discredit me (a “consumer”, is what a lot of you doctors/hospitals call us now from what I have seen on many web sites), by calling me F!@#ing “mental”. All I can say is F#@!K you all. You don’t get it that a lot of children ARE traumatized by you basically forcing yourselves on them. My niece is now another victim of your abuse when she confided in me that she hates doctors and why (unfortunately it is the same reason). I am just speaking out against your medical abuse. All it is, is a power trip and/or sick need on your part because obviously you could give a shit whether or not you traumatize kids…which is again “sick” on your part…otherwise you would give them a chance to say “NO” if they are not comfortable with you spreading their legs open. I should have had rights as a child to my dignity and privacy, especially when I wasn’t sick or having any symptoms and for pediatricians/doctors to view kids as basically subhuman, not having rights concerning this subject IS “sick”. It’s my F!@#$ing body and to say that forcing a child into having her underwear removed and legs spread wide open when she is horrified/humiliated/violated by the idea, especially when there are no symptoms is F!@#$ing “sick” on the part of the pediatric/medical community…and if you as an individual doctor believe otherwise, you are the F!@#$ing “sick” bastard.
  Children have the right to say F!@#$ing “NO”.”
  and
  ”
  I appreciate M’s acknowledgment that doctors do not have regard for their patients discomfort with these exams, however, doctors have no F@#$!ing “routine” business in children’s genitals and it is absolutely F@#$!ing not an “unfortunate necessity”. It is only what you sick doctors want!!!When the child does not have any symptoms in that area and when the child does not want it you still force it upon them with no regards to the child!!!!!! So I absolutely know that most of the pediatricians are either pedafiles or like to force their power over their patients!!! Otherwise if they really cared about children, they would take the child’s emotional well-being into consideration by giving the child a say whether or not they are OK with being violated between their legs. I ALSO DO NOT F@#$!ing CARE ABOUT THE DOCTOR”S POINT OF VIEW OF HOW “HAPPY” OR “NOT” SOME OF THEM MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABOUT DOING THESE “EXAMS”…THEIR POINT OF VIEW MEANS ABSOLUTE F@#$!ING SHIT because it’s my F@#$!ing body not their F!@#$ing body!!! I have also read MANY adult women’s experiences of intimidation from their doctors to get them into stirrups so YES many/most doctors DO have power trip issues.
  The fact that pediatric patients have no rights concerning the privacy of their own genitals…to not being violated and some/many of us traumatized is F@#$!ing incomprehensable!!!
  So my F@#$!ing pediatrician got what he wanted when I was 9 so I hope he got a good thrill out of it… I only got a lifetime (from the age of 9 to today) of nightmares, sleepless nights, tears, and absolute F@#$!ing hatred toward doctors!!! The fact that I was forced by not being even told what the doctor wanted to do..he just did it with the attitude that “this will happen” so I was not given any consideration that it was my body and had the power to say NO, which I would have said NO. He just removed my underwear leaving me completely naked on the table and spread my legs wide open… To have someone do that to me at 9-years old was horrifying, humiliating, and as far as I was (and am) concerned I was completely violated… so no I am not F@#$!ing overreacting. You just don’t F@#$!ing get it…everyone is not the same…some people do not want anyone violating their genitals and the doctor’s could give a shit as seen for example by “anonomyous’s” comments. That was my first and last genital exam as I never let another doctor near me again, and take me seriously when I say that I will F@#$!ing die before I ever let another doctor near that part of my body ever again!!! and will “take out” the next doctor/nurse who ever does violate me for any reason. I already have found out from blood tests that I now have Stage 3 kidney disease probably from UTI’s which of course I don’t go to doctor’s for since it ivolves that part of my body. You F!@#$ing doctors give no regard for children’s emotional health and took the right to say “NO” away from me when I was 9. So because of that, it has since always been “NO”!! It did in NO WAY “get me used to” those exams…it did just the extreme opposite!! Boy what a life-saving exam that was! ”
  
  Graeme I hope these 9 year old girls aren’t traumatized like this.
- Blogger 6:27 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2010 – MarÃ¬a
  Sep 25, 2010 at 5:22 pm
  After problems with an “abnormal Pap Smear”, I ended up having a laparotomy!!!!
  My female gyno was an awful doctor, -rude, patronising and arrogant- but that’s wasn’r really the problem…
  She ws an Evangelical Christian, and she knew that I was passionately pro-choice…From them on, she really hated me and started her power trips, she was goin’ to show me who’s boss!
  I had a very promiscous sexual past, something she also held in utter contempt, (from a strictly medical point of view,that’s not nearly as dangerous as it seems, provided you don’t get STDs such as AIDS, HPV, Hepatitis B, etc).
  I BEG, women please listen to me: doctors (very especially if male), are not above passing easy moral judgement on a woman because of her appeareance, political or religious beliefs, and especially her sexual past, discussing cassually very intimate things about you (yes, they may actually identify you) with whomever they think they can trust, and even strangers if thy fancy, and deciding your medical treatment based not on facts but on their misguided absurdities.
  Believe or not, i had several months’ abstinence, and along my Pap smears I was getting a lot of hummiliating STDs I had never been told about or consented…Aparently, she din’t believe when I told her I wasn’t sexually active at the time (that lasted for three years!!!
  Now I don’t trust them anymore. Please, I beg again, be very careful about surrendering any in intimate information, it may be used against you!!!
  
  • 2011 – Suze (USA)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 5:48 pm
  Maria, I completely agree with you that doctors WILL make moral judgements and will treat patients differently IF you do NOT have the same values as them.
  
  Personally I have NEVER understood why I should disclose ALL this extremely personal information to these people just because they are ‘dcotors’ or ‘nurses’ … I mean what DIFFERENCE does it make IF I am secually active, when I am only here for a sinus infection?!
  
  Pretty much the ONLY time that such questions should EVER be asked is IF they are in any way related to the problem area. Basically if you come in with symptoms and there are multiple illnesses that have those symptoms, THEN it is valid to use such information to eliminate the non-applicable illnesses. If a guy come in there for painful urination, well then asking about sexual activity is valid – as it may be a bladder infection OR it could be an STD.
  
  At some point in history someone promoted doctors as moral and ethical policemen … and now we can’t seeem to stop this line of thinking. I also am pro-choice, BUT neither my views on abortion NOR those of the doctor should in any way INFLUENCE my treatment.
  
  If I come in for birth control, there should NOT be any discussion of WHY. It is NOT the doctors place to determine IF I get birth control. The only valid questions on my history is any health problems & any other medications I might be taking (because of interactions).
  
  I get really annoyed when I read these blogs about young women discussing their ‘cancer scares’ (false positives as we know) … and they talk about how their doc asked them about their desire to have children … cause IF they did, THEN he’d choose LEEP otherwise conization.
  
  WHY is the doctor making these choices???? Any good doctor would explain EVERYTHING and the WOMAN would decide. Just because I don’t want to have any kids, that doesn’t make my cervix disposable.
  
  It bugs me though that these women talk about it like the doctor is being so wonderful and gracious to ‘try to spare her fertility’ … who has more interest in MY health, ME or some doctor? hmmmm … well, don’t they get paid either way?
  
  • 2012 – Cass (USA)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 10:35 pm
  Mammograms are basically useless. The pink ribbon LIES are coming to light! Here’s an excerpt from the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/23/health/research/23mammogram.html?ref=health
  
  “A 10 percent reduction would mean that if 1,000 50-year-old women were screened over a decade, 996 women rather than 995.6 would not die from the cancer ?” an effect so tiny it may have occurred by chance.”
  
  Another article I found says mammograms can CAUSE breast cancer. The excerpt from the article says:
  Risk factors of mammograms ?” more than 6 mammograms in a lifetime can result in cancer (Epstein 1992)
  
  If anyone believes that women are not being HARMED by the LACK of Informed Consent need to think twice.
  
  The fact is your Doctor can order you a test that causes cancer!
  
  • 2013 – Suze (USA)
  Sep 25, 2010 at 11:39 pm
  Well Cass that has ALWAYS been true
  
  ‘The fact is your Doctor can order you a test that causes cancer!’
  
  XRays have been known to cause cancer for many years … but we have them all the time for simple reasons like to check for broken bones … it seems we hardly ever think about how much radiation these involve
  
  Especially when it has been found that many hospitals and other facilities that use radiation (esp. for cancer ‘treatment’) at least in the U.S. –> many people are getting WAY MORE radiation than necessary.
  
  In fact 20/20 did a story about how they found over 75% of those receiving radiation for cancer treatment weren’t receiving the correct amount … some were getting too much, others not enough. Apparently the radiology techs ‘just forget’ to change the settings to match the orders for each patient, so the machines often get set once and then a bunch of patients get radiated … so some patients treatment is failing because they aren’t getting enough … others die sooner due to being over-radiated.
  
  My one friend (breast cancer survivor) actually ended up with 2nd & 3rd degree burns on her chest due to improper (too much) radiation treatment. She had the skin just coming off her chest – and it wasn’t until she complained to her primary doctor about the bleeding & discomfort that the doc looked at her chest and gasped in shock. He was livid — and called the radiation facility to yell at them.
  
  The thing is, she didn’t even CONSIDER the possibility that things were not right. Of course, you’d think someone whose entire job is to set a couple dials and push a button could manage to actually DO those few steps … but apparently not.
  
  Anyway, every single thing that a doc does ‘for you’ can kill you. The wrong mix of medications, the wrong dosage, the wrong diagnosis … we all need to be our OWN advocate and ASK questions and do NOT let them do ANYTHING until they answer AND you UNDERSTAND and AGREE.
  
  • 2014 – Beth (UK)
  Sep 26, 2010 at 12:24 am
  So much for these “standard” and usual pediatric exams including the genitals.
  They are not done, as far as I know, in the UK, I recall a general check at about 5 but I was in my underwear (pants and singlet/spencer) which wasn’t moved or removed.
  I don’t think they happen in Australia either.
  The obsession with the genitals is bizarre, no wonder your doctors don’t think twice about exposing you for no reason, using stirrups and the like, they must assume by 18 you’ve suffered every indignity anyway.
- Blogger 6:29 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2015 – Graeme NZ
  Sep 26, 2010 at 4:02 am
  Hi there sorry the link did not work. Please google it with this search:
  pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/109/2/228.pdf
  It should come up first in the list. Prepare to be annoyed. Let me know if it doesnt work and thanks Mary for that.
  
  • 2016 – Cass (USA)
  Sep 26, 2010 at 5:25 am
  Graeme,
  OMG! The doctors and nurses who conducted the study should be arrested for child sexual abuse and pornography! This study is TOTALLY INHUMANE and there is NO MEDICAL EXCUSE to conduct a study like this. Those children whose parents made them participate will be traumatized for life.
  
  • 2017 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 26, 2010 at 5:45 am
  Kind of OT but apparently doctors are talking about their patients on facebook. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/docs-blab-on-facebook/story-e6freuy9-1225929368925
  
  • 2018 – Julie (Aust)
  Sep 26, 2010 at 6:02 am
  Aussie doctors are sending patients for too many cat scans and increasing their risk of cancer. Not sure if they get a kick-back or not, but I read in the paper that there has been a huge increase in cat scans for all sorts of trivial reasons and these scans increase your risk of cancer.
  My own doctor suggested I have one for backache, I refused….it’s an old sporting injury and I know why it flares up from time to time. I take anti-inflammatories and painkillers until it settles down. I’ve always refused surgery. Why take the risk and make a manageable problem worse? This pressure to have a scan is fairly recent – I wonder why doctors are suddenly pushing scans?
  Thanks for an informative forum – the only real information I’ve ever found on pap tests or mammograms, thanks heaps!
  I’ll spread the word…
  
  • 2019 – Suze (USA)
  Sep 26, 2010 at 4:25 pm
  Graeme, isn’t it odd how American doctors are sooooo concerned about measuring photographing & prodding the genitals of small children? Yet, they claim that they are looking for evidence of sezual abuse …
  
  Well then, that makes sense. Sexually batter a child to check for abuse?!? WTF are these idiots thinking?
  
  And these parents … can you imagine someone coming up to you in the waiting room of your childs pediatrician and asking if you’ll your daughters hymen to be photographed & measure in the interests of ‘science’. I would think that an answer of yes should atuomatically put you on a list for child-abuse investigations.
  
  The thing that is so completely ridiculous about all this is that no matter how many studies they do (and there are LOTS of journal articles published on many many of these) – they keep finding that they CANNOT reliably determine sexual abuse from physical exam of the child or their genitals… then you always see the last sentence or so of the article saying … ‘so genital exam is required, but the results should be used in combination with other evidenciary factors to determine abuse’
  
  So they just did this huge study that PROVED the physical findings are USELESS … BUT do them anyway, why pass up a chance to traumatize a child?! The bastards …
  
  I really hate what docs are allowed to get away with.
  
  Not sure why American docs seem to be so overly obsessed with children’s genitals though!?
- Blogger 6:32 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2020 – Ruth (USA)
  Sep 26, 2010 at 6:03 pm
  Not just children’s genitals, Suze…
  They have a fair interest in our genitals as well.
  The whole gyn thing sickens me, using their “professional standing” to convince people they need totally useless and even harmful exams and tests and always completely ignoring informed consent.
  My friend has a 14 year old daughter and she’s told her mother about the girls that have had their first gyn exams and they’re either withdrawn and behaving oddly, openly disturbed by the exam (one is seeing a therapist) and several have threatened to run away from home. All have said they’ll never go back “and you can’t make me”.
  The mothers think they’re doing what they should do as responsible mothers and their girls just have to accept these exams are part of being female. They were brainwashed, now it’s time to work on their daughters.
  Parents are supposed to protect their children, yet these brainwashed women deliver up their babies for this sort of abuse.
  Thank God my friend can see straight through these dishonest money-hungry creeps – her daughter is safe for the time being.
  I pray the BC thing is sorted by the time she’s sexually active – the online pharmacy sounds great.
  Women my generation had no choice, submit or no BC, many of us chose no BC but kept it to ourselves, our evil secret.
  That should never happen, all women should be able to protect themselves from an unplanned pregnancy or abortion. We have BC but doctors have tied it up and prevent access, that must be changed.
  When I was younger, most doctors were male as well, there was absolutely no way I was having all of that done to me by anyone and 1000 times NO with a male doctor. I’d prefer to live without sex than have that trauma in my life. Thankfully condoms were available and got a lot better after AIDS raised it’s ugly head…it took AIDS to improve condoms though, not unwanted pregnancies.
  
  • 2021 – Suze (USA)
  Sep 26, 2010 at 10:14 pm
  Ruth .. I know the American docs are obsessed with genitals in general (adult & child) …
  
  But if you read the pdf that Graeme linked to … they make a show of stating that they asked the child for permission first?!
  1st of all that only makes sense if the child is old enough to understand WHAT you are asking AND what you intend to DO to them.
  
  The whole reason there is such a thing as ‘age of consent’ for sex is because our society believes children are not capable of understanding all of the implications of sex …
  
  How can we say on the one hand they aren’t capable of understanding … then say ‘well we asked if it was ok?!’ You cannot have it both ways.
  
  If a pedophile ‘gets the childs permission first’ does that make it ok??
  
  Certainly I will allow that a doctor can ‘go there’ if there is a problem … with symptoms … but otherwise WHY!?
  
  For us adults, it is a violation but one that if we are careful & confrontational we CAN avoid.
  
  For children, it is HUGELY more abhorrent. First they are taken to the doctor by a parent that they love & trust … then often they are brought to a doctor they may have known for a long time. THEN they are just completely violated .. often with trusted ‘mommy’ right there watching.
  
  It is sick, twisted and so much worse for children … how can they ever trust again? Then they have a VERY negative association with their ‘lady parts’ … some getting depressed, some develop eating disorders, some go off sex for years and years … and some become promiscuous.
  
  What I don’t understand is WHY a woman who we KNOW doesn’t ‘enjoy’ these exams would be soooo quick to introduce her daughter to them EARLY?
  
  • 2022 – Ruth (USA)
  Sep 26, 2010 at 11:23 pm
  I can answer that last one.
  I’ve heard a woman say that she has been silly enough to take risks with her health by allowing prudishness to get in the way of her care, but will ensure her daughter gets the right “care”.
  There is also the scare mongering that goes on, what if your daughter gets cervical cancer and you haven’t taken her for her exams?
  The thinking is weird…no one seems to care about the psychological trauma to these poor children and young women or the facts, risks v benefits.
  I couldn’t look at that article, I find the subject matter too upsetting. I even hate to read of a grown woman being used or demeaned by doctors, just the thought of stirrups makes me shiver.
  
  • 2023 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Sep 27, 2010 at 8:28 am
  Hi Everyone,
  
  I had a terrible thought last night while reading more of your postings:
  
  The sick creeps, i.e. male gynecologists who get their jollies physically touching and looking at women in those unnecessary, but forced exams? Why hasn’t anyone come forward yet to say they were secretly videotaped and they saw themselves on some perverse website online during their intimate exam/s? I mean, whatdya bet these creeps videotape their “favorite” patients while they are being examined, for their own sick jollies? If I ever were stupid enough to go to a doctor again, you’d better believe I’d be looking for video equipment or even a cell phone conveniently lying around in the examining room. Technology today means women and children are more vulnerable than ever. All this probing and forceful insistence about viewing our genitals is degrading and horrifying and disturbing beyond words.
  
  • 2024 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Sep 27, 2010 at 8:35 am
  And Graeme, that medical blog was the sickest thing I’ve ever read, how they positioned each girl and poured sterile water to get a better look at their hymen; I can picture every girl still being so traumatized. NOBODY should EVER do that sort of unnecessary exam on a child.
- Blogger 6:33 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2025 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Sep 27, 2010 at 9:05 am
  I LOVE that “I Hate Doctor” website! Here is the funniest blurb thus far:
  
  At Thursday, May 04, 2006 10:57:00 PM, Anonymous said…
  I hate doctors!!!! All they want is your money and the ability to violate you. For the past few months, all I have seen in the papers is how there are phoney doctors out there who only want to see a woman’s private areas. The last time a nurse tried to remove my clothing, I “accidentally” kicked them in the face. They have no business being there unless I say so, and trust me, I will never say so. Doctors are terrible people!!!
  
  This is what EVERYONE should do to any doctor who does whatever he wants without ASKING you first. Bravo to the author of this funny post!
  
  • 2026 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 27, 2010 at 1:57 pm
  Torrance with your background I’m surprised that you never googled “I hate doctors” before. It’s s a great site isn’t it. There’s also the “patient modesty” thread which is huge! It’s mainly from the male perspective and their issue with nurses. It makes you realize just how widespread this resentment towards the medical profession is.
  
  • 2027 – Sienna (Aust)
  Sep 27, 2010 at 4:33 pm
  That happened here In Australia, Torrance
  A male dermatologist “doing a skin check” asked women to strip naked and then he “examined” them including digital rape.
  A skin check in this country is usually down to your bra and pants and not everyone has them, my doctor told me to forget it, I don’t have any moles, it was enough to watch for anything new. I appreciated a common sense approach.
  Anyway when they arrested him (some of the women went to the Police after the medical board took its time to do anything) he was in possession of lots of naked photos on his mobile phone taken during these skin checks. They’ll never know how many he assaulted because many women don’t report medical assaults, they just stay away from doctors or male doctors.
  A nurse told me once when a woman bolts or gets agitated/upset at the suggestion of a male doctor it can be a sign she’s been a victim in the past.
  
  That sick dermatologist did some shocking things to his patients, basically used them for sexual kicks.
  I decided then and there that even male dermatologists were out for me. You’d think you’d be safe enough with a skin specialist but no, they have the power in the consult room or when you’re disrobed and vulnerable. I would never take all my clothes off, it’s always unnecessary, but I don’t blame those women, in that setting you often comply and wonder why you did later on, many of us go into a trance like state to cope with something confronting.
  It can be very hard to confront a Dr in the consult setting. I prefer not to put myself in that position. My Aunt needs to see a urologist, she hated the days when all doctors were male, she avoided them and self-medicated, she has lots of home remedies that work really well…she’s waiting 13 weeks to see a female urologist, her GP was puzzled when a male urologist could see her in 3 weeks and said, “most ladies your age are used to male doctors”….she replied, “most ladies my age had no choice BUT to get used to it, we HAD to see male doctors and like many women, given the choice, I want a female doctor”. She’s told me in her youth, doctors got away with everything, there was no point even reporting a Dr, you would have been dismissed as a silly woman and how dare you say anything bad about a God-like figure. Chaperones were never used either (it’s still haphazard here in Australia, most Dr’s don’t seem to use them)
  I’m sure these men know how far they can go as well…just far enough to put it in a medical context if they need to.
  No thanks, I’ve had trouble with men over the years and I’ve had a few scares, you can’t tell me men suddenly change when they get a medical degree. One of the biggest perverts I ever met was a medical student, now out there somewhere, he had pornographic photos on his bedroom wall in college for “medical research and study purposes”, he was asked to remove them a few times – he’d leave his door open and they’d be in full view of the female residents. He was always strolling naked to his room from the bathroom as well and enjoy the reaction from the female residents, always timed when a female was in the corridor. He was eventually asked to leave college due to his disrespectful conduct and attitudes toward women.
  He had no respect for women…it scares me to think he’s out there suddenly a respectful, professional Dr who “doesn’t notice”, yeah sure!
  
  • 2028 – Sienna (Aust)
  Sep 27, 2010 at 4:42 pm
  Not even safe with a male dermatologist and note the negligent conduct of the Medical Board, now being sued by the women assaulted by the “Dr”. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2008/s2189674.htm
  I hope that wakes them up, their role is not to protect criminals/rapists/ perverts who happen to have a medical degrees!
  
  • 2029 – Marcy
  Sep 27, 2010 at 6:31 pm
  Complaints against doctors are on the rise and their conduct is deteriorating. This is really of no surprise. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11421049
- Blogger 6:36 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2030 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 27, 2010 at 8:20 pm
  Sienna, No surprises there about a male doctor abusing patients. I’m more appalled by the Medical Board. I find it disgraceful that they protect their doctors and I’m glad they’re being sued.
  
  • 2031 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Sep 28, 2010 at 5:12 am
  I never Googled “I Hate Doctors” because until I found all of you sound, sane people, IIII was always made out to be a “hysterical female” for hating doctors. I cannot believe that my own female intuition, all these years, wasn’t so wacky after all.
  
  • 2032 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Sep 28, 2010 at 5:15 am
  On that “I Hate Doctors” website, there is a nasty post toward the bottom of the “first chapter” who demanded to know (he was a medical student, ready to supposedly throw in the towel): “If all you whiners hate doctors so much, why do you keep going to them?” Well, as usual, round robin, women feel FORCED to keep going for these forced exams and unnecessary tests, just to get birth control, so that is one reason. I’ll have to look at that patient modesty board, too. What a relief, every day, I read more and more of your posts. Whoever developed this board should win a Nobel Peace Prize. You’ve all certainly brought me the ONLY peace and relief I’ve ever had!
  
  • 2033 – CC
  Sep 28, 2010 at 6:57 am
  I had my first pelvic exam at 24 and I am now 26 and a virgin. I was wondering about having another pelvic exam before I turn 27 but since I am still not sexually active and low risk, I think I will have another one when I am 32 if I become sexually active or better yet after I am married with children. Thanks for this wonderful insights. You guys saved me the trip of going to the gyno and feeling totally raped and violated by the procedure. When I went the first time I spotted for a week and a half I believe and felt almost weak and sick down there. I think it was just too much for a virgin body and the fact that the doctor was so cold about it made the matter worst. The nurse was nice and tried to comfort me while I was in tears and showed a lot of sympathy but the doctor called her away from me as if to tell her that she should not console me. It was just an awful experience. May I add that the doctor was a female. I mean I have somewhat a fear of sex but in all honesty, I would rather attempt that than go to the gyn. The gyn terrifies holy cow out of me.
  Thanks again for these reviews, my body will be saved the gyn abuse because of these comments.
  
  • 2034 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Sep 28, 2010 at 9:17 am
  I think the entire profession of gynecology is horrible; so sorry to read what you went through, CC. The doctor should have told you a Pap Smear was not necessary, but they want that all mighty dollar and women to become accustomed to those horrid exams. I have never gone and I will NEVER go. I can speak along with some of the other ladies on this board in the fact that I cannot even endure any relatinships with men and have been celibate for years. It took too long for me to get birth control pills online to stop my horrible cycles; doctors always demanded on severely invasive physicals for a prescription for birth control pills. NEVER AGAIN!
- Blogger 6:36 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2035 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 28, 2010 at 1:35 pm
  Yes Torrance I know what you mean about being labelled a hysterical female. I know my medical file at the hospital where I had my children has “mentally unstable” entries plastered all over it. I don’t care. I think it’s funny actually because the doctors there were tiptoeing around me scared that I would walk out with my high risk pregnancy. So they were super nice to me. The reason being that they thought I was a insane was because I was not the nice compliant pregnant woman that they usually get. I was the argumentative militant feminist. Too bad. I had a male OB (no choice). I figure if they ( male OB/gyns) want to encroach on what is female business then they can cop the sh#t that that I dish out. When male doctors decided on hijacking birth about a hundred or so years ago because they wanted to exert their power over women, the death rate shot up astronomically for babies and mothers because the arrogant male doctors would go from patient to patient without washing their hands. The midwives, who were doing a fine job before the male doctors barged their way into the profession had a much lower death rate.
  And notice how “hysterical” only applies to women? It comes from the word uterus and goes back to Ancient Greece where they thought having a uterus makes women hysterical.
  
  • 2036 – Sienna (Aust)
  Sep 28, 2010 at 3:33 pm
  I saw a documentary about that, Mary. The women who delivered with midwives survived in the main, the doctor-delivered women dropped like flies, died of infection after these doctors went from the morgue to them without disinfecting their hands.
  
  Also they put birth practices in place that make it harder to give birth, like lying down and working against gravity. Apparently squatting is a better position, but the almighty doctors didn’t want to deliver while you were in that position, too awkward FOR THEM.
  In the States I’ve read during the 60’s and 70’s almost all women who gave birth got an episiotomy routinely, it was easier for the Dr to deliver, quicker and they didn’t care about the mother being in pain and having a painful recovery time. They assumed all women would tear anyway. (not true)
  Midwives do a great job, but often you need a Dr as well and it’s best to have that arranged ahead of time.
  Also, it will be near impossible to have a home birth here in the future. The government has caved to pressure from the head of the ACOG. He’s against home births and they’re increasing the pressure on women to breastfeed. An idiot even suggested formula only be available on script!
  Honestly men and women think nothing of coercing women into doing what they want them to do with their bodies. Our bodies belong to us, not the State or doctors.
  
  I couldn’t see a male obgyn, I’d have a midwife if I couldn’t get a female obgyn. I have private health insurance so hopefully I’d be able to find a female doctor. I really don’t trust the medical profession and doubt I’ll have children, it’s never been a strong thing for me though, I’m happy being a godmother.
  I suspect if I ended up being on the birth trauma site my life would be over….I couldn’t bear to be mistreated in L & D and treated like a lump of meat, medical students forced onto them etc. Many women talk of unauthorized internal exams and that basically women have no rights in that setting, but I noticed all of the complaints were about public hospitals – that shouldn’t be the case, we all pay out taxes and deserve decent, sensitive treatment.
  Birth sort of means being out of control with people I don’t trust…that makes me very uncomfortable.
  
  • 2037 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 28, 2010 at 6:28 pm
  Yes Sienna And why I called the doctors arrogant when they didn’t wash their hands was because one doctor tried to argue that they were spreading germs but the rest of the know it all doctors laughed at him and refused to do it.
  
  I was just reading the morning paper and surprise, surprise another male doctor acting inappropriately: http://www.smh.com.au/national/risk-taking-doctor-banned-after-paying-patient-for-sex-20100928-15vus.html
  
  “Dr Young, a former Ivanhoe Grammar student and University of Melbourne graduate, was then reprimanded, cautioned and ordered to have counselling in 2006 after making inappropriate comments to a patient during a pap smear.”
  Seen one , you seen them all. Yeah sure!!
  
  • 2038 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Sep 29, 2010 at 6:33 am
  Mary, my former childhood GP also wrote horrible things about me all seven years my mother dragged me to see him, every single Saturday and he would NEVER allow me to see my own records, I tried to obtain them numerous times when I became an adult and he would NEVER relinquish them to me. I wrote him again last year demanding that he stop withholding them and his nurse wrote back that he’d destroyed them, supposedly, which I highly doubt, seven years after I last went to him at age eighteen. He made my life Hell and I hope he rots in Hell. I don’t think there is anything wrong with demanding to know precisely what any doctor is going to do to my body and declining things I KNOW to be inappropriate and wrong, but I literally have battled my entire life through students and offensive doctors wherein I could have gone to a witch doctor or a shaman and gotten better medical treatment, or a voodoo priestess for that matter. I HATE DOCTORS!
  
  • 2039 – Annie
  Sep 29, 2010 at 6:58 am
  I was watching an episode of “Embarrassing Bodies” tonight and a young woman experiencing pain when she had sex speaks to one of the female GP’s and is referred to a male gyn.
  I don’t get that, she saw a female GP and then gets a referral to a male gyn.
  Don’t female doctors understand we see them because we feel more comfortable seeing a doctor of the same sex for some things?
  I had pelvic pain last year and my GP left a referral to a gyn for me to collect, she said she’s ask around and find someone good in the area. It was a male, forget it, absolutely no way would I go to a male for that sort of exam and especially not an unknown doctor. I rang her up and she seemed surprised…
  I asked her why she thought I’d been using an all-female GP surgery for 8 years.
  She apologized and said she’d write a fresh referral.
  I couldn’t understand why she’d send me off to a male gyn when I only see female GP’s – why would I feel differently about a specialist?
- Blogger 6:38 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2040 – Lesley
  Sep 29, 2010 at 2:05 pm
  Anne
  A lot of doctors lack common sense. You’d think it’d be a no brainer for your GP. Lets hope she remembers that with other patient referrals.
  I get that men would like to be OBs. But gynecology? I just think it’s very strange that a man would what to spend his day dealing with menstral problems and menopause etc. How could it be interesting to them? Very very strange to me… Actually, I read somewhere that it’s the control thing that male gyns enjoy and that is why they do it.
  
  • 2041 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 29, 2010 at 2:24 pm
  I was reading this thread on a forum under a cervical cancer topic:
  
  “I had an abnormal pap smear and my gyno called me back in to have a colposcopy biopsy today. She told me I have pre-cancerous cells in my cervix.”
  
  “I have had pre cancer cells for 3 Years now and now the hysterectomy with left ovary and tube removal, I couldn’t do the biopsies, colpo’s and LEEP anymore. I’m glad, now waiting on path results. Hang in there, don’t borrow trouble
  P10- so glad the caught it and your doing well!”
  
  “So glad this was caught at the precancer stage. Good for you for having regular pap smears.”
  
  ‘I am too, still it’s scary to know that there is something inside my body that can turn into cancer.”
  
  “Kudos to you for being proactive with your care! After all, early detection is our best defense. Please keep us posted on your biopsy results. ”
  
  “I got my biopsy back…NO CANCER! Just have to have a pap smear every six months now instead of every year.”
  
  Great huh every six months now. That will guarantee she’s on the “precancer” merry-go -round.
  
  • 2042 – Kate (US)
  Sep 29, 2010 at 2:29 pm
  I heard that male doctors can just turn off their “genes” and look at naked women like a robot. Yeah right. Men like looking at naked women and getting to probe them … I’m sure that’s why some men become gyns.
  
  Actually, why anyone would want to be a gyn is beyond me. I know we do need them because problems do happen, but idk it’s a sick profession.
  
  If I had a problem with that area I’d get an external ultrasound -no pelvic, no internal ultrasound.
  
  • 2043 – Annie (Aust)
  Sep 29, 2010 at 4:03 pm
  I know, I couldn’t watch her on the exam table with him probing around – you can’t tell me that a male doctor in his 30’s doesn’t get off touching a 23 year old woman like that.
  It is impossible, he might not go over-the-line, but he hardly needs too, he’s covered almost everything with the exam.
  Seeing her in surgery, vulnerable with a man in charge of her body made me feel a bit sick.
  I’m sure some women don’t want to make waves and use these referrals or feel like a prude to complain…
  To hell with that….one of my friends felt she couldn’t complain and even now, 4 years later, she has nightmares about the exam and has to push it out of her mind. She said it will never go away, the feeling of a man getting the better of her.
  
  • 2044 – Graeme NZ
  Sep 30, 2010 at 4:18 am
  I read somewhere recently that in Africa they are testing a HPV test for women. The rationale is to save money because if women test negative then they do not need a pap smear which is both more expensive and beyond the infrastructural capabilities of many african countries. Specifically the transport and reading of smears.
  At the same time pap smear testing is being offered in many places in Africa now and typically clinics are used. An interesting requirement in most african clinics is that hair removal is obligatory for what they say are hygiene reasons.
- Blogger 6:39 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2045 – Sienna (Aust)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 6:30 am
  I’ve read that too, Graeme.
  If you are negative for HPV and you can test yourself, you don’t need to retest for 5 to 10 years and others say if you’re negative for 10 years and not in a new relationship, you can forget about testing.
  I’ve also heard that the HPV produces heaps of false positives though, so it would just be another way they get women into the merry-go-round of testing, biopsies and treatment. Honestly this cancer is so rare here and the test so bad, I don’t think it’s a good idea to get caught up in testing unless you’re very high risk – at least those women have a slim chance of being helped by the test. All the women I know who test have got it wrong, they test because they “think” they’ve already had a scare, because they think the cancer is very common or because all of their friends have had cancer (yeah, sure!)
  I don’t know a single woman who knows the facts and still tests.
  Even the high risk women think the cancer is common – women have been universally hoodwinked as to the benefits and importance of this testing and few know the risks.
  Cervical cancer in Africa is a big problem because of their risk factors (very early sexual initiation, early childbirth, multiple partners, not much condom use, HIV and immune system issues, lack of sanitation and sanitary products, use of mud caps during menstruation and so on)
  You can’t compare our rates to their rates, although doctors, the cancer council and Papscreen do that all the time to mislead women into thinking the cancer is very common or to suggest their rates are higher because they don’t have a fabulous screening program. Sorry, I’m not falling for that whopper…boy, can those people lie!
  
  • 2046 – Lynne (US)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 8:13 am
  Mary – Which site did you read those pap smear/treatment comments?
  
  I read Daily Strength occasionally and the ignorance of the women posting on that site boggles my mind.
  
  I think one of the main reasons the pap smear campaigns are successful is that the medical community can use the term “pre-cancer”. If you think about it, ANYTHING can be pre-cancer so it is very misleading.
  
  I have read about women having pap smears every three months since they have a lot of abnormal pap smears.
  
  How can anyone go for so many tests and treatments and not do a little research?
  
  • 2047 – Kate (US)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 10:00 am
  I know a few people who have paps every three months and their lives are miserable. They won’t stop because they’re afraid of cancer even though all the results are basically false positives. Idk, if you have 5 years of false positives wouldn’t someone realize they’ve been fine all along?
  
  • 2048 – Lynne (US)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 11:26 am
  I think the problem Kate is that these women don’t know they were false positives, but again “pre-cancer” abnormals. The majority of women think they were saved from dying by having these cells “treated”.
  
  • 2049 – Suze (USA)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 12:00 pm
  I find it stunning how our supposed ‘health organizations’ are soooo worried about cervical cancer in these locations where basic hygiene is an issue. Gosh, I bet these women would love to have real clean water sources everywhere. Hmmmm … maybe instead of wasting tons of money and using these poor women to do research on the effectiveness of your medical interventions … maybe you should spend that $$ on sanitation and safe/clean water supply creation?!@
  
  Really … if you don’t have easy access to clean water, is cervical cancer really a big concern for you(even if your risk is really really high) ??
  
  The whole hair removal for hygiene is utterly ridiculous. If they have got the stuff to remove the hair, certainly they got the stuff to wash the area …
  
  I am amazed that there are women there that go along with this testing. I just do not get how you can think that it’s alright for these ‘clinics’ to come around and test you for some mystery cancer, when there are so many other real actual pressing problems RIGHT NOW that don’t require a microscope to see.
- Blogger 6:40 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2050 – Suze (USA)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 12:10 pm
  This talk of Pap testing in poor nations & locations … reminds me of an old friend in college who was quite militant about all the ‘well-woman’ crap and was always trying to get me to ‘buddy up’ with her (where you get a girlfriend to schedule her stuff along with yours so you can ‘go together’ ?!)
  
  Anyway, she smoked like a chimney in winter … had a rough voice and a hacking cough. Hmmmm… sound like she might have an ACTUAL problem? I asked her multiple times if she had asked her doctor about that cough. She said that she ‘felt fine’ and has had that cough for years, it’s not a problem.
  
  So we can be sure that she had been to multiple doctor visits. There is NO way that they did not know she smokes. There is NO way that she hadn’t coughed horribly around them. Yet not one of them told her she should quit smoking … none of them made any special checks of her throat & lungs.
  
  But they were very sure to have her get her cervix scraped as often as her insurance would allow.
  
  I even tried the route of telling her that smoking increased her chances of CC … but she said ‘then they’ll find it at my next pap’ … so this is a case where she believed that these paps & other treatments were as simple as having a mole removed. Just zap off that little bit, and keep on puffing.
  
  It all comes back to maybe finding and fixing things that are common and RIGHT THERE. Easy and obvious to see problems are ignored, while they get out the special tools & table to find microscopic issues on your cervix!?
  
  So stupid.
  
  • 2051 – mary (Australia)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 3:10 pm
  Lynne it’s on the Hystersisters site. There are plenty of women there who seemed to have had hysterectomies for precancer.
  Before I discovered all this info here I was pretty ignorant too about pap smears. But there is no way in the world that I would have agreed to a hysterectomy for precancer. I would have told my doctor to wait until it became real cancer. I still think that precancer is the biggest load of B.S. that I’ve ever heard.
  
  • 2052 – Beth (UK)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 3:47 pm
  The pre-cancer goes on for that long, with testing every 6 months, in the end women just want it over with, stop the anxiety, the fear, the exams.
  It’s evil; once you’re on that cycle, its very hard to walk away and get on with life.
  I know women who’ve stressed for years about this cancer, “I can feel abnormal cells growing”…it’s cruel to deceive women like this and we’re not talking about a small number of women, here in the UK it’s 65% of all women who screen are referred…I have no idea what % front up more than once, but that figure must be quite high. The hysterectomy rate is lower here and I hope women are not agreeing to them because of abnormal paps.
  I know one woman who wanted it all to stop and asked for a hysterectomy, then her Dr told her the truth and maybe she’d be better off retesting in 3 years, not 6 months. Of course, the whole false positive thing wasn’t mentioned, I think doctors fear women finding out the high risk of referral and the rarity of the cancer.
  It is major fraud on all women who screen.
  Naturally, she freaked out, 3 years when she had pre-cancer that had already needed treatment twice. She didn’t understand what he was saying because she was never honestly informed of risk at the start, this woman had never heard of a false positive, pre-cancer is PRE-cancer!
  It’s an utter mess and my heart breaks for these poor abused women.
  This is what we do to women in the “civilized” world.
  
  • 2053 – Kate (US)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 3:54 pm
  What does pre-cancer really mean anyway? I know it is “abnormal cells that could lead to cancer,” but if we all at some point will have abnormal cells then is it really “pre-cancer?” It wouldn’t be profitable saying it is just normal cell changes which every women will have at some point.
  
  Also, women who’ve had hysterectomies and still get paps, what happens when they have an “abnormal?” How can you do a biopsy when there is nothing to biopsy? Do one of the vagina?? Makes no sense to me.
  
  • 2054 – Ruth (USA)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 4:04 pm
  Women don’t know that its bad to test too often, they think its a good idea, you have a better chance of catching something “in time”. We’re told the pap is not 100% reliable and if it misses something, they’ll pick it up eventually.
  No one tells women there are serious risks with over-screening and that it doesn’t help at all, and we hear about false negatives to scare us into regular testing, but they never mention false positives which are very common.
  Women therefore think an abnormal is a very serious problem and the test was great and caught it in time.
  You can see how deception has aided doctors and governments to reach screening targets. In the States we don’t have a specific screening target where doctors are paid to test 80% of patients (I’ve never heard of it, but it might exist, I wouldn’t be surprised) Our doctors try to test everyone and I mean everyone, whether they have a chance of benefiting or not. Excess is the norm, a regular day at the office, so to speak.
  Isn’t it terrifying to think they have no ethical or moral issue with treating women so appallingly? No pangs of conscience at all the lives destroyed, all the negative and painful outcomes, the years of misery.
  I worry this will never stop, they’ll keep trying to catch every last case and we’ll all end up damaged victims of this “successful” program.
  (not us, but all the other women)
  Its a slippery slope when you can’t tell women the truth or they won’t test, doesn’t that mean there is a fundamental flaw with the testing in the first place? Something that requires informed consent at law, can only be successful with no informed consent.
  I can’t imagine this happening in any other setting, the abuse of our rights is huge…and they must be breaking the law and professional standards.
  To think this is all marketed as something for the benefit of women, the most successful screening test ever…we should all be very thankful.
  Thankful if we’re all ignorant sheep.
- Blogger 6:41 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2055 – Suze (USA)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 5:41 pm
  What really annoys me about this whole ‘pre-cancer’ bunk is how it is presented to women. Yes, the whole idea of putting cancer in the name is to scare us into doing whatever they tell us to to fix it.
  
  But they call all these ‘abnormal cells’ lesions to make them sound worse than they really are. Then when you ask questions they treat you like you’re a moron.
  
  If treating you like an idiot doesn’t get you to fall in line, then they get all stern and start using the scare tactics.
  
  It’s kinda funny to watch if you know what to look for and aren’t the ‘victim’ of their attempts. The sad thing is that so many women are so trusting.
  
  Even some who have read this blog have said how ‘your docs all sound horrible, but my doctor is soooo wonderful’ … yep, brainwashed.
  
  Every doctor is just a person … they might be a really nice, concerned and honest person … they might be misinformed, they might know a LOT about SOME things and absolutely NOTHING about others.
  
  Anyone who says how ‘wonderful’ or ‘amazing’ their doctor is, it raises a flag for me. So many women have had horrible previous experiences, that when they find a doc that doesn’t seriously damage them during an exam – they call him/her amazing.
  
  I want an amazing doctor who actually doesn’t try to do ANYTHING that isn’t completely necessary and justifiable for MY best interest (not for liability purposes).
  
  • 2056 – Stephanie
  Sep 30, 2010 at 10:21 pm
  As far as HPV there are over 240 strains and each strain does something different. So if you have the strain that gives you planter warts on your foot you will NOT get cervical cancer from it. And as far as getting over it. I have had doctors tell me all kinds of answers to that (US doctors) 1)certain people can fight it off all by their self and you will never have it again 2)your body can fight it off to the extent of making it go dormant in your body and it will pop back up anytime your immune system is compromised 3)your body at some point will build up an immunity to it.
  Obviously the doctors arn’t to sure what they are talking about. And it is VERY frustrating. I was diagnoised with the HPV strain that can cause cervical cancer. They say you get it from sex but the thing is I got when I was 10. So that doesn’t make since. That’s why I don’t think it’s strictly an STD. But I’m made to feel like that’s what it is. So people that find out that I have it look at me like I’m a slut when I’m not. I don’t ever have problems with the HPV doing anything except when I get pregnant (your immune system is suppressed when you’re pregnant)then it goes crazy and starts making me have abnormal cells. But once I have the baby everything goes back to normal. However with my 3rd it got real bad so after I had the baby they made me get a biopsy that said I had moderate to severe dysplasia then they had me do a LEEP which completely traumatized me! I’m still waking up at night freaking out and shaking because of it. I can’t even walk into a doctors office anymore without having a panic attack and running out. They say I need to come back for a follow up pap to make sure everything is all good. But I don’t know how I will be able to make it through it.
  I also agree with the one who commented about male doctors getting an eye full during pap smears. The guy that did my LEEP sat down with his face right infront of my…private area grabs my thighs and start pulling me closer while starring right at my area saying “oh you need to move closer” I felt like he was trying to shuv his face into my private area! I’m a MARRIED woman! It REALLY upset me and I’m NEVER going back to him. Oh and to make me really feel uncomfortable afterwards he walks up next to me before leaving the room (I’m still half naked lying on the bed)leans over me gives me a hug then kisses the top of my head and says “you’ll be alright” and walks off. What the heck! I don’t know why a doctor needs to do that! But atleast it wasn’t as bad as when I was about 16 went in for a pap smear and was “fingered” by the doctor while he kept asking me if it “felt good”. He by the way is STILL giving out pap smears. I see his name in the phone book and shudder.
  As far as Planned Parenthood a close friend of mine wanted to prove that they will give abortions to women that arn’t even pregnant just so that they can get money. So she made sure sure she wasn’t pregnant and went there acting like she thought she was and wanted an abortion. When she went there they had her take a pregnancy test and told her that she WAS and tried to pressure her into an abortion. So I don’t trust them at all either.
  Oh yeah and the US keeps trying to pressure people to get the HPV vaccine now. But it has horrible side effects one of which is death (yes it is rare but still). But it doesn’t fully protect you. One of the reasons is because there are over 240 strains and it only protects against 4. So if you get one the other 236 strains you’re still screwed. That’s why I’m not going to get it! Screw that!
  
  • 2057 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 10:41 pm
  I think the term pre-cancer is very misleading and is a large part of the problem. How can all of these lesions and other cellular changes be pre-cancerous when most clear up on their own, if they’re not removed first…
  Only 1% can be pre-cancerous….which takes us back to the ethics of screening for a rare cancer with an unreliable test.
  This test was always unsuitable for mass screening, but to try and include every woman with no informed consent is highly unethical. (and I suspect illegal in some cases)
  I find it very hard to comprehend that the government and doctors have such little regard and respect for the 99% of healthy women – they arrogantly behave as if we have no rights at all in this suspect public health campaign to reduce an already small death rate from a rare cancer.
  I think this screening has been built on a pack of lies and it’ll take determined action to force honesty and informed consent onto the agenda.
  Many in the pro-screening lobby are misguided, many are highly intelligent – why can’t they do more than accept the “party-line” and look at the actual facts? Any reasonable and intelligent person could not then scoff at informed consent.
  It seems many people accept the selected half-truths or are part of the alive-today-thanks-to-a-pap-test group.
  The thing that disappoints me – women who accept it’s fine to coerce women. Can they hear what they’re saying?
  I saw a forum recently and a woman was arguing that BC should not be available OTC. Her first argument – because women will skip their pap tests and other checks if they’re not forced to have them to get a script.
  Can you believe a woman would openly endorse coercive practices against women?
  The fact that cancer screening is unrelated to BC and that all cancer screening requires your informed consent because it has risk, has escaped her completely. This is someone who has accepted, whether she sees it or not, that coercion is fine against women.
  Given there is no respect anywhere for informed consent, I suppose they are just accepting what they see around them…this makes the battle even harder when basic legal rights can be openly flouted while many women cheer along with our oppressors and abusers.
  If I can find that forum again, I’ll post it…I’ve seen it often over the years, it’s the standard argument against making BC readily available OTC.
  Of course, the Pill has been around for years and it seems other countries have had no problem making it available. If a chemist can take a BPT and assess basic suitability, I don’t see a problem. Seeing doctors all the time is inconvenient and expensive and provides an opportunity for doctors to take advantage as they have done for decades. Abortion and unplanned pregnancy are far greater risks to your health than rare cervical cancer, yet you see women arguing that missing your pap test is so dangerous that these women should be denied contraception and risk an unplanned pregnancy.
  I can’t really blame many of these women, they’ve been very successfully manipulated and brainwashed over many years.
  
  • 2058 – Hettie (Aust)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 11:31 pm
  Warning, you guys will all be on the “non-compliant” list… congratulations! http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090616.5386/ama-delegation-seeks-to-code-for-non-compliant-and-ungrateful-patients/
  
  I know about this pressure to have pap smears, I’ve been fighting with doctors for years. I found a Dr a few years back that doesn’t refuse scripts but still tries to talk me into it, but doesn’t insult my intelligence.
  
  I even got a letter – Papscreen went through the electoral roll and found I wasn’t on the Pap smear Register.
  
  My grandmother has told me stories about the Nazi pursuit of people they viewed as non-complaint, in particular, the refusal to register as a Jew.
  
  I was stunned that Papscreen would go to those lengths, flushing out the women who are being silly and risking their lives. I made contact to let them know any further correspondence would be handled by my solicitor.
  
  Papscreen adopt the high moral ground, assume we’re all idiots and will run along and sacrifice our healthy cervix when demanded to so…
  I was told they strongly encourage women, but if you look at the material they publish, it’s all biased, not one woman would be screening with a full appreciation of what she was doing and risking.
  
  Taxpayer funds are wasted chasing women to tests for a cancer that was never a major threat to our lives, it was officially categorized as “rare” decades ago before the program started – it shows this is a political thing, buying votes from women’s groups and other powerful bodies. Women’s health is very political and stands to destroy everything we’ve worked for years to achieve, a say in what happens to our bodies.
  
  What a shocking waste of money when our hospitals are falling apart, our pensioners have to beg for a small increase in the pension, psychiatric & disability services are in urgent need and carers payments & assistance are basic or going under due to lack of funding, BUT they have money to pay women to go through electoral rolls and chase up adult woman to tell them to have a pap test – for a rare cancer! The test is hopeless as well, more often wrong than right.
  
  It is impossible for any woman not to know about this test, it’s everywhere, in newspapers, the news, doctors hassle us about it… unless you’re living under a rock in the red centre, you know about pap tests! This is nothing more than coercion… they have this insane plan to rid Australia of cervical cancer if they have to butcher the lot of us to get there…. they need your cervix to reach their goal! To hell with your health and how you feel is irrelevant, you’re just a woman.
  
  If they were pushing a reliable test for a common cancer, it would still be my right to refuse, but they must be very nervous about this testing achieving nothing even with all their puff, smoke and mirrors… if they’re going to these absurd lengths, perhaps, the death rate hasn’t gone down this year and questions are being asked, their survival is on the line. Poor Papscreen. (sarcasm) With a sliding death rate that was always small and the pressure to keep bringing it down, I suspect more women will hear from Papscreen. This group don’t care about adverse outcomes, just that number, how many deaths from cervical cancer? Adverse outcomes – no interest at all, who cares, what adverse outcomes, deny it all, play dumb?
  
  Still they’re good at cooking the books, they’ve been doing it for years. Someone’s head should roll for this scandalous waste of money, there are far more deserving causes than cervical cancer.
  
  • 2059 – Suze (USA)
  Sep 30, 2010 at 11:57 pm
  Did anyone see the Dr Oz show recently on Thyroid Cancer?
  
  Yet another rare cancer (0.9% lifetime risk) that they are now trying to ‘raise awareness’ for especially since ‘women are more likely to get this than men’.
  
  What totally annoys me about this whole cancer thing is that the 1st idea that comes to any doctors mind is ‘well, let’s cut it out’ and/or fry it with radiation
  
  They see so many parts of our body as disposable … done having kids, well no reason to have that pesky uterus in there just waiting to ‘go bad’?!?
  
  If you show up with pain in your side, they are gonna take out your appendix (whether it is diseased or not) unless they can find something else to do to you.
  Then when that doesn’t fix the problem, the gall bladder is next in line of ‘unnecessary organs’.
  
  I guess we shouldn’t be too shocked that the cervix is pretty high up on their ‘unnecessary’ list …
  
  What amazes me is that none of these doctors is looking for a cause, they are just looking for a ‘cure’ (and hoping that it takes a lot of ‘treatment’ and plenty of $$ for them to achieve).
  
  My aunt had her thyroid destroyed by radioactive iodine about 10 years ago, and I so wish that she could take it back. Doctors just jump right into cutting without considering that whatever caused her thyroid to swell would STILL be going on – but now she just has no thyroid.
  
  I know this for myself, as I recently was told that my symptoms may be thyroid related. Well, that led me to researching the topic and I am now trying iodine therapy (the real non-radioactive stuff that our bodies NEED) and my thyroid has already begun to noticeably reduce in size.
  
  Could I find a single doctor that recommended anything other than kill the thyroid and/or remove it?! Nope.
  The internet saved me again 🙂
- Blogger 6:43 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2060 – Jeanine (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 1:12 am
  hmm ive read this blog pretty much daily since i found it and im not convinced that this info against pap smears is accurate. i’m considering going for one but only because im terrified i’ll end up dying of cc. theres only a handful of people refusing these smears by the sounds of it. i dont wanna be one of the unfortunate ones who decline the test and end up with the disease.
  there are young girls out there who are 22/24 pleading in magaznies with girls to make sure they have their smears, if they wasnt any good, these girls wouldnt be doing it.
  
  • 2061 – Jeanine (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 1:14 am
  forgot to add that the 22/24 year olds who are pleading in magazines to get smears done are those who developed the disease.
  
  • 2062 – Karen (USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 1:55 am
  I think many women have been sexually assaulted by male gynos. When I was a teen my friend said her male gyno gave her the petname ‘Sunshine’. She had to see the gyno for birth control pills. Yeah, I bet she made his day bright and shining. Of course, a young teenage girl spread eagle and in full view was very enjoyable for him.
  
  After I heard this at 19 I refused to have a pelvic exam just so I could get a prescription for birth control pills. I was not going to risk a sexual assault and therefore ended up with an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy after a condom broke.
  
  • 2063 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 2:16 am
  Or, “think” they developed the disease, Jeanine.
  It’s entirely a matter for you whether you have smears or not, but the facts don’t lie however, the information (if you get any) from your doctor will not inform you and may even mislead you.
  Most of the young girls frantic about smears have had false positives and unnecessary treatment, this cancer is rare in all women, VERY rare in women under 30 and incredibly rare before 25.
  I’d consider your risk profile, look at the facts and make your own decision. I’d never tell another woman what to do, I have no idea of your risk profile or how you might feel about risk – of cancer and false positives.
  I can tell you that the information in this forum is from articles in the British Medical Journal, articles by well-respected doctors like Professor Michael Baum and Angela Raffle. The 23 year old women urging you to have pap smears, where did they get their information? Is it accurate and complete?
  
  The top risk from this cancer is 1%-1.58% – a low risk woman has a risk lower than that…less than 1% risk of getting this cancer.
  If you decide to have testing, think about reducing the risk of false positives by testing from age 25 or even 30 and only 5 yearly. (the Finnish program, 5 yearly from 30 – they have far fewer false positives and unnecessary procedures)
  I think most women have no idea of the real facts behind this testing, they get their information from unreliable sources or from people with a vested interest in screening and often women “think” they had a cancer scare when they got a false positive, sadly, that’s very common – most women don’t understand that an abnormal smear does not mean cancer and that most lesions regress without treatment. These things are never made clear to women. In the UK you have a 65% chance of being referred at some point, but less than 1% can have a real problem as the cancer simply doesn’t occur more often than that….(screening only helps 0.65% of women who test and one third or 0.35% get false negatives and may be disadvantaged by testing)
  
  I hope you find the information here and at Dr Joel Sherman’s site helpful and good luck with your decision-making.
  I’m not anti-screening, just anti-dishonesty and coercion – if a woman makes an informed decision to screen, that’s entirely a matter for her.
  
  • 2064 – Marcy (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 2:18 am
  Jeanine,
  
  You are freaking out. It appears that you are hooked by all the propaganda and not by the facts that screening can be harmful and that cervical cancer is uncommon. It’s ignorant to think that no harm is caused by blind cervical cancer screening.
  
  Just remember that if you have an abnormal pap smear, abnormal cells are perfectly normal, so do not get hooked by all the scare mongering. The healthcare system created and exaggerated the fear of getting cancer, and now you are terrified of dying. It seems that you are about ready to take their bait.
- Blogger 6:44 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2065 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 2:23 am
  I wanted to add….some women are unlucky enough to get this rare cancer -these poor women are often showcased to scare us into testing. I’m unaffected by those cases because I’m low risk and know the facts behind the cancer and this test. The risks exceed the benefits for me.
  I don’t act on fear, only on the facts.
  If someone gets cervical cancer, that’s very sad, but I have no idea of that woman’s level of risk or what type of cervical cancer she has – if it’s an adenocarcinoma, it’s unlikely a pap smear would have picked it up anyway. (false negatives)
  I’d urge all women to make an informed decision and not act on fear.
  
  • 2066 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 2:49 am
  Karen,
  It is infuriating that in this day and age of reliable birth control, women still can’t get to it without jumping through unnecessary and invasive hoops.
  The situation in the States must be changed…some doctors seem to enjoy the fact they’ll get you in the end. An American colleague told me she refused these exams and a pap smear and when the Dr refused her a script, he said, “well, you can say No now, but you won’t be able to say No when you end up pregnant”…she was so furious she went straight bad to the office and spoke to a lawyer. She went back and spoke to the Dr complete with legal references and got her script, the Dr’s attitude changed completely faced with an informed woman.
  Karen, I hope things worked out for you, are you buying the Pill online these days?
  
  • 2067 – Karen (USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 3:05 am
  Yes, I’ve been ordering birth control pills online for awhile now. Thank goodness for the Internet. I can now choose what is best for me without being coerced into an unnecessary pelvic exam.
  
  Unplanned/unwanted pregnancies caused by doctors withholding birth control pills is a huge crime against women. It’s made worse when a woman has an abnormal pap and is forced to submit to treatment (biopsy, etc) or the birth control script is withheld. I also know women being forced to submit to annual mammograms in addition to pelvic exams just to obtain bc pills. This practice is deplorable and has to END.
  
  • 2068 – Jeanine (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 7:46 am
  some of you girls say an informed desicion based on facts, but what sorta facts have we got? only a couple of articles from different sources. i dont want a smear if im honest, not at all BUT in saying that, i havent read anything yet that convinces me they’re not medically necesarry.
  
  • 2069 – Susanne
  Oct 01, 2010 at 8:29 am
  Jeanine,
  
  You might wish to check out the Violet-to-blue web site at http://violet-to-blue.blogspot.com/
  
  A very astute reader with the same concerns that many of us on here share has compiled an extensive list of references and information, which she has posted on the site. I think reading through them — and there are quite a few references! — might help you better understand the risks/downsides of testing and the reasons why many posters on this forum question the value of these exams and tests. It’s very informative and enlightening.
- Blogger 6:56 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2070 – Anna B. (Cont. Europe)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 8:45 am
  Jeanine- different sources- British Medical Journal, or Daily Mail, which different source would you trust…? Or the nurse saying your kids would grow up without a mother if you don’t have this test? That’s not a FACT that is plain and disgusting emotional blackmail. How it DIRECTLY relates to the pap smear? If you would consider purchasing anything, a service or a product, and the servicing person would start to tell you that if you don’t want what they offer your children will grow up without a mother, i assume you would be rightly offended. A fair business is business for both sides, and whoever has to resort to manipulative tactics, has something to hide. The nurse should have told you FACTS- how often the cancer occurs, how sensitive and how specific the test is, what risks are associated with this testing. Clearly she was after the target. The target payments- they should raise a red flag on their own. They have to resort to low tactics like that, because the facts wouldn’t convince enough people, and as the cancer is uncommon, they need to look in a big haystack for the tiny needle. The FACT that this repulsive propaganda machine exists says everything- its about politics, and not the health or well-being of individual women.
  How many times you heard them about the thirld world rates, why don’t they mention the ones from the first world? Who can deny they are more relevant? Well, because this cancer is rare here, and always has been.
  As the authorities had the guts to free this tissue test from the 1920s on the population without a controlled trial,i believe the BMJ article from A. Raffle is the closest thing we have to an evaluation of this wretched test. Somebody please correct me if i am wrong.
  
  I actually wanted to ask the people who write for this blog, whether they know of a study of the real demographics/psychological profile of people who screen- this crap they push about how “good” people screen and “bad” ones don’t. How DARE they attach any moral judgment to a personal decision like this? It is not the business of any gyn-fraternity to determine whether i am a good person or not. Unsurprisingly arbitrary. I made a little personal inventory with a friend of mine- two of us knows 9 girls who don’t screen (11 inculding us) and 5 who screen, (all under 30) three of them on-off under psychiatric treatment, one screens because her father had prostate cancer, (no comment) one a serious hypochondriac, the kind who has a biopsy every month. I know our acquaintances constitute a tiny pool, but i would so love to see a study that challenges the crap that the gyn industry spreads, that only un-educated, stupid, ignorant, etc women don’t screen. Why NOT having an inaccurate and invasive tissue test for a cancer that kills averagely one women under 30 women in my home country would not be a RATIONAL decision, and why should it have any MORAL stigma attached to it- what on earth it has to do with my morals and how could it place judgement on me as a person???- i challenge any fucking doctor to tell me.
  
  • 2071 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 8:52 am
  Jeanine it sounds like you’ve already made up your mind and now want to convince the rest of us that you are right.
  
  At least if an abnormal comes back you will have some idea of what you are in for in the way of “treatment”.
  
  Good Luck to you.
  
  • 2072 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 9:00 am
  Anna what I usually ask women who are so “pro-pap” is if they believe that all the women who have had “abnormals” treated would be dead without the treatments. Do they believe that they would surely die of cervical cancer if these cells were not removed.
  
  They always say yes.
  
  If that is true, and the medical community agrees that something like 90% of women who get pap smears on a regular basis will have “abnormals” treated at some point in their lives, then shouldn’t the ones who don’t treat be dropping dead?
  
  Like Anna’s pool of friends. Those that don’t screen must have abnormals at some point in their lives. If the propaganda is correct, most of them will die of cervical cancer.
  
  Yet that doesn’t happen.
  
  Why can’t the “experts” pushing the smears explain that?
  
  • 2073 – Anna B. (Cont. Europe)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 10:37 am
  Lynne-
  “Do they believe that they would surely die of cervical cancer if these cells were not removed.”
  
  Well, do they believe, that EVERY YEAR if some doctor does not scrap some cells of their cervix, and a pathologist doesn’t look at them under a microscope (entertaining details in Richard DeMay’s American Journal of Clinical Pathology article) they die of cancer? Healthy twenty x years old girls? That is just so absurd. So very absurd in itself. But it is happening. Most of these girls don’t even know what on earth leukemia or lymphoma is, let alone what the symptoms are- why should they care? Its rare, they have their lives to live, no-one has a bone marrow biopsy when they feel a bit run-down, they are not all hypochondriacs, no no. But cervical cancer, ooh that is so scary, yeah right, its in the tabloids, so it is scary.
  
  • 2074 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 01, 2010 at 11:22 am
  From just now in Yahoo: Hillary Clinton blasts an unethical STD test conducted in Guatemala to test out Penicillin. Early use of women and prisoners as human guinea pigs. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101001/ts_nm/us_usa_guatemala_experiment
  
  And as for Pathology: Does anybidy ever wonder if pathologists truly review these microscope screens or do they toss them up in the air and when they land say “yes” or “no” to prevalence of Cancer. My mom has had tests conducted, very paibfully and very expensively, wherein those results could not have been read in any way by anybody AT ALL, or if they were read, they were read indifferently; always with “inconclusive” results. It took her going to Texas last March to visit my brother, she suddenly had seizures, was hospitalized, and after 15 YEARS of being the dutiful, stupid woman patient, who went for everything imaginable, only the doctors in Texas discovered that everything which was “inconclusive” and “in her head” wound up being THREE brain aneurysms and a potentially, fatally low level of Potassium in her blood. But up here in Connecticut, for fifteen YEARS, every test which was run and there were plenty of them because I accompanied her to almost all of them on her demand that I do so, EVERY SINGLE TEST RESULT came back like she was making it up. I blew up at some doctors, all of whom I hate, demanding to know HOW she OBVIOUSLY was sick, was going for EVERY recommended and sometimes painful and ALWAYS COSTLY test and every result was reading “inconclusive”/ So she goes to Texas, has seizures and THEY diagnosed her properly? So she comes back here to Connecticut this year, met with yet another quack at Yale, who insisted she needed brain surgery. I told her: “Forget it, Mom. He only wants your money!” Now, if it was THAT critical, she would have already had those aneurysms removed. Now the doctor keeps asking her when she is going to be able to pay and how much does Medicare cover? So I was right. Also, I feel she has Lupus. I have said this for at LEAST nine years. She went to a homeopathic doctor and HIS bloodwork showed Lupus. I am not a doctor and III knew what she had. I told her if she wants those aneurysms removed from her brain (if they even exist; I don’t know, because I have never seen her x-rays), then III will operate on her and what’s more, I’ll operate for free. And I’ll bet I’d do a far beter job on her than some quack surgeon would do. They’d probably mislabel her and perform another hysterectomy on her! I HATE doctors!
- Blogger 6:59 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2075 – Kate (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 11:25 am
  I agree with Lynne, Jeanine you sound like you do want to test. We have provided a lot of information and links to sites where you can get concrete evidence. If my laptop hadn’t died I could give you about a dozen links (but most of them are already on the violet to blue site http://violet-to-blue.blogspot.com/).
  
  If you want to test, then go and test -it’s your right and choice. But if you don’t at least go to the site we mentioned and look at all these articles you are doing yourself a disservice. Please don’t ignore the information we’ve given you; we haven’t made up facts and there are articles out there.
  
  Unlike the government we haven’t made anything up or have lied. Once again, if you want to test then go for it, I guess.
  
  • 2076 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 01, 2010 at 11:25 am
  Sorry for my typos. When I get on a roll with what I need to speak about, I make typos.
  
  • 2077 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 01, 2010 at 11:25 am
  Sorry for my typos. When I get on a roll with what I need to speak about, I make typos.
  
  • 2078 – Shia
  Oct 01, 2010 at 12:24 pm
  I’m a virgin and I had my first and last pap smear a year ago. I told the doctor I was a virgin but she she said that it was neccessary since I’m 18. Needless to say it was horrible and painful. I cried the whole time. And I’ve been resenting it ever since. I felt like crap, like. Someone had tooken my virginity. I never will do that again.
  
  • 2079 – Beth (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 1:38 pm
  Shia, are you American?
  To test a virgin is absurd and taking huge risks with your health. The number of pap smears that produce false positives in your age range is something like 1 in 3…while cancer in your age group is almost unheard of, I’ve never heard of a single case in a teenager.
  I’d lodge a complaint with the medical association and if you have a community legal service, I’d speak to them.
  There are references at the Violet to Blue site and Dr Sherman’s site that plainly show pap tests don’t help women under 25 at all, but expose you to high risk. If you’re American, they recently changed the start age to 21, proof positive of the risks of screening women your age. (and the lack of benefit)
  At the very least you should have been advised of the risks and benefits of testing as an 18 year old virgin.
  It’s only by tackling these doctors that we’ll change the current accepted thinking that informed consent does not apply to women. No woman should just be processed without proper information and her informed consent – and testing women who have NO chance at all of benefiting is highly unethical. (and possibly more)
  Why did you have the pap smear? Was it an opportunistic test while you were seeing the Dr for something else or do you take the Pill for heavy periods or for acne?
  In the article by James Dickinson, “Time to change the Policy” he makes a comment about testing virgins…something like, “the American program seems to suggest including women not yet sexually active, a recommendation that surely must be ignored in practice”…in other words, so ridiculous and nonsensical that it must be dismissed by doctors.
  I’ve looked at journals that say cervical cancer is a venereal disease linked to a sexually transmitted infection called HPV….the link between sexual activity and cervical cancer has always been played down because they didn’t want that fact “putting women off”….but basically a virgin has nothing to fear from cervical cancer.
  Hell, I’m not a virgin, but after looking at the facts, I decided not to risk my health to partly cover such a tiny risk.
- Blogger 7:00 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2080 – Beth (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 1:41 pm
  Also, a pap smear is never “necessary”…it’s a cancer screening test that requires your informed consent (legally) – it can never be required for anything. It’s nothing more than an option, an offer…
  We should all challenge any Dr who uses language like that….
  
  • 2081 – Hexanchus (male – USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 2:09 pm
  Shia,
  
  I’m sorry for your experience and the physical and emotional trauma it has obviously caused you.
  
  A piece of advice, if I may:
  
  Next time a doctor tells you any test or procedure is “necessary”, especially if it is a screening test, make them prove it. Tell them that in order to make an informed decision, at a minimum you require.
  1. Copies of accredited published research supporting their recommendation.
  2. The true lifetime risk of the condition being screened for, including any risk factors and their effects.
  3. The sensitivity, specificity, and positive and negative predictive values of the test.
  4. Full disclosure of any potential risks, both single incident and lifetime cumulative, including false positive rates and any potential for unnecessary procedures or further testing that may result.
  
  That once you have received the information, you will take the time to evaluate it carefully along with other resources, taking into account your own personal values, and make an informed decision whether or not to have the test.
  
  Ladies, you don’t have to get confrontational to do this….the more calm and matter of fact you are the better. If they get confrontational or coercive with you as a result, don’t react in a like manner – just be polite but firm. It makes you look like the reasonable person and them like the wacko. Call them on it if you like… “I don’t understand why my legitimate request for the information I need to make an informed decision has upset you. I’m honestly a little uncomfortable with your reaction – it makes me feel like you’re trying to hide something from me.”
  
  Hey, doctors play head games with patients all the time – turnabout is fair play. From personal experience, it can also be a lot of fun……
  
  • 2082 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 3:25 pm
  What happened to Shia is just another example of no informed consent.
  
  • 2083 – Kate (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 3:51 pm
  I had one at 21 they said no pap no birth control and I “let” those f***ing monsters do that to me four times total. I was on the brink of having another one until I found this site. I was soo lucky that I never had an abnormal or a biopsy. I feel like I survived with little physical damage (mental damage is plenty tho!) I was never given any information just do it because you have cervix.
  
  My bf kind of pushed me into the last one but once we found out what this test really is he’s apologized up and down the wall. He feels horrible but, like me, he didn’t know what was really going on.
  
  I feel violated in every way imaginable; I felt like if I didn’t do this then I was going to die. I also assumed cervical cancer was common since I know so many people with “pre-cancer.” F**k! It was all lies and manipulation!
  
  I was also raped in college and I didn’t go to the hospital because of the whole rape kit thing. I was raped and I couldn’t handle being raped again … I didn’t care if it was to collect evidence.
  
  Couldn’t they let you do some of the swabs yourself?? Idk, I wasn’t going to let them look and touch me after that … and I was terrified that they were going to take pictures. Maybe it sounds stupid but I feel like I’ve been raped 5 times.
  
  • 2084 – Hexanchus (male-USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 4:43 pm
  Kate,
  
  I don’t think anyone here would call it stupid – you have to live in your own head. My hope is that you can put it in a place where it doesn’t eat you up inside….
  
  FYI, you have the right to refuse any component of any exam, including for rape – that includes photos as well. Yes it may make it more difficult to prosecute, but it’s up to you which you feel is more important.
  
  In such an incident as rape, obviously STD testing would be a good idea, but I don’t see any reason a woman couldn’t do the swabs herself. Also, if a rape victim is exhibiting signs of physical damage to that area as a result of the attack, they should probably get it checked out. That doesn’t mean the woman shouldn’t be able to decide by who and how, and set any ground rules ahead of time, including exactly what will be done and who will be present.
- Blogger 7:00 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2085 – Kate (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 4:58 pm
  Thank you, Hexanchus. I didn’t have much injury and the bast**d at least had the decency to use a condom, but if he didn’t and if I was physically I would have gone. Just don’t let anyone bully you into anything.
  
  • 2086 – Karen (USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 6:07 pm
  Kate,
  I feel the same way you do. I was forced to submit to pelvic exams just so I could obtain prescription birth control.
  
  Not having a choice in the matter, learning how ineffective the pap smear test is, the high risk of unnecessary treatment, and the lack of Informed Consent — I totally feel that I was raped every time a pelvic exam was forced upon me against my will just to obtain prescription birth control pills.
  
  I was never sexually abused or raped by anyone other than the many healthcare providers who used coercive and unethical scare tactics to get me to screen! I now suffer a mild form of PTSD thanks to the culmination of effects imposed by healthcare providers. I realize this suffering was all for NOTHING and against my constitutional rights. Healthcare providers make and keep people sick.
  
  • 2087 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 6:21 pm
  Jeannie why don’t have a pap smear and let us know how it goes. You sound like you want one. But honestly, Do you get your medical facts from magazines? Are you serious?
  
  • 2088 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 6:54 pm
  Well Jeanine, hopefully you notice that all of us here are not interested in ‘convincing’ anyone that WE are right … we just want ALL women to think for themselves.
  
  READ all of the studies & links … then by all means, print them out and take them along and ASK your doctor these questions …
  
  Ask about what your actual lifetime risk of getting cervical cancer is. (in the U.S. it is 0.5% that is a 1 in 200 chance).
  
  Ask about the risk of false positives …
  
  Ask about how to calculate YOUR personal risk … age is a factor, # of sex partners, etc…
  
  If your doctor is not willing to have a real open & honest discussion with you about these things BEFORE you have the test, then you need to find another doctor.
  
  None of us here has any vested interest in preventing other women from doing anything … we are trying to prevent women from being victims of faulty science and predatory tactics by overbearing docs & gov’ts
  
  You’ve read at least some of our pleas, and I hope that you choose to at least ask your doctor for the truth before giving into the media hype.
  
  I have been battling doctors, the media & other women over this test all my life … I am 39 and I have NEVER had one, and I NEVER intend to. It is not required, it is optional. So you do what you want, as will I.
  
  Just don’t do it because ‘someone scared you into it’ ….
  
  Don’t NOT do it because ‘the women on this blog said it was a bad idea’
  
  … Choose to test or not to test because you’ve considered the FACTS and decided what was best for you.
  
  • 2089 – Kate (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 7:41 pm
  I was once like Jeanine where I was convinced I had to have this test. I kept saying to myself “they’re doctors they don’t care,” “it only takes a few minutes,” blah blah blah. I haven’t been tested in three years and I’m STILL HAVING NIGHTMARES! Yes, I have nightmares and panic attacks about this stuff and I never went through anything other than a “regular” pap.
  
  That effing test didn’t help me in anyway and I certainly didn’t benefit from it. Over 90% of women don’t benefit from testing. And really the vast majority don’t benefit from *any* cancer screening.
  
  I suggest everyone reads “Should I be tested for cancer? Maybe not and here’s why,” By Dr. H. Gilbert Welch. Jeanine, this would be a great book for you. It has lots of facts and evidence which we apparently “aren’t” providing.
- Blogger 7:01 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2090 – Beth (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 8:03 pm
  Kate, sorry to correct you, but MORE than 99% DON’T benefit from smears, it’s 99.35% if you count the false negative women.
  It’s 0.35% false negative and 99% no benefit at all, but referral rates for colposcopy/biopsy range from 95% lifetime risk with annual testing, 77% for 2 yearly, 65% for 3 yearly and somewhere between 30%-55% with 5 yearly.
  The Richard DeMay article tells us 99.35% don’t benefit from smears…0.65% benefit from smears. (and some argue less than that if you factor in other causes contributing to the decline)
  
  • 2091 – Kate (US)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 8:17 pm
  I wasn’t sure of the exact figure so I just used 90% as blanket number. The laptop is dead and I lost all my info, but thank you for posting the actual numbers 🙂
  
  • 2092 – Karen (USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 9:53 pm
  I briefly checked amazon.com for the book Kate recommended and found this interesting excerpt by Dr. Gilbert Welch (Medical professor at Darmouth University:
  
  “Welch’s book provides the reader with a new way to think about testing. He tells how cancer tests may identify disease for which there is no effective treatment, or for which the consequences of treatment are worse than the consequences of the disease. Welch explains why it may sometimes be better not to know you have cancer. In fact, many of us have conditions that will never affect us. In one section, he uses data from the pathology literature to demonstrate how fuzzy the definition of early cancer realy is – that different pathologists can examine the same specimens and come to different conclusions about whether cancer is present. Another section offers easy rules that clarify misleading reports of cancer rates. By walking us through the meaning of cancer statistics for individual patients, Welch clarifies what numbers should be important to individual patients.”
  
  I am ordering this book right now! It’s enlightening to see an M.D.’s realistic, truthful and skeptical perspective on cancer screening.
  
  • 2093 – Karen (USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 9:59 pm
  A medical professional writes a review of this very interesting book, Should I be Tested for Cancer, Maybe NOT and Here’s Why by Dr Gilbert Welch:
  
  ‘H. Gilbert Welch, MD, MPH, has written an unusually understandable revelation of the folly of testing for cancer in people with no symptoms. He explains how only a few people will benefit from common tests such as PSA, fecal blood, mammograms and others. He is enough of an insider to be able to explain the flaws in clinical trials being used by “authorities” to recommend extensive testing, and the lack of trials in some cases. The unneccessary biopsies, surgeries, radiations, chemotherapies for slow-growing cancers or even non-malignant ones are presented bravely. The uncertainty of testing is exposed where a positive for cancer may be wrong 1/3 of the time. And it is up to the patient to get second opinions.
  The financial and legal pressures on MDs to test excessively are brought out. There is advice on talking or writing to your MD to indicate your unwillingness to undergo too many tests, and not to hold your MD liable if a cancer was “missed” – that is the big thing.
  The deaths caused by cancer treatment are aired. This is something very few people, even MDs, know. Even when a treatment can cut the deaths from a particular cancer in half, most current treatments create non-cancer deaths, many of which will be improperly reported.
  Welch is a special expert on the misleading nature of 5-year survival rates how they can rise because of early detection, yet with no change in the cancer plus cancer treatment mortality rate.
  There are good explanations of how 5-year survival rates are calculated, how age-adjustments are made, how randomization for trials is done, and other things not even taught in medical school, but reserved for medical researchers. And quite easy to comprehend with clear figures and tables.
  No errors that I can find; a really excellent book.’
  
  Can I bash this book over the head of the next doctor who coercively pressures cervical cancer screening and dismisses my informed REFUSAL?
  
  • 2094 – Beth (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 10:03 pm
  No problem, Kate….a Dr tried to tell me 10% of women were very happy they had pap smears last year, I corrected her with references and even the 0.65% figure is debatable, it could be lower than that…now think about all the adverse outcomes to help that tiny number and with no informed consent.
  Anyway, the Dr looked stunned…it was a great feeling!
  I do think some doctors have just accepted the hype as well, no excuse they’re professionals and should be dealing with facts.
  Of course, a fair % of doctors are misleading women to get to targets and get their money from the government. Testing me would have carried a extra bonus payment, so I’m a fish they’d like to land.
- Blogger 7:01 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2095 – Beth (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 10:12 pm
  Sadly, Welch doesn’t say much about cervical screening, but has a lot to say about breast and prostate cancer screening.
  I think Elizabeth or someone wrote to him to ask why he hasn’t had a closer look at cervical screening.
  There is an attitude in the profession that the over-treatment is minor in nature, so why not over-treat if you help a few women. Of course, that is highly unethical without express informed consent and who says it’s minor? Ask the poor women who have these invasive, painful procedures and take a look at some of these biopsies and treatments on Utube, the one on cone biopsy still gives me nightmares. Also, all the women that go on to deal with infertility, miscarriage, premature babies, trauma, some even develop PTSD…etc
  Minor – what a cheek these people have!
  
  • 2096 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 11:30 pm
  Jeanine, Sorry to come back to you again … but I was re-reading your posts and I realized what was bothering me.
  
  You say
  ‘i havent read anything yet that convinces me they’re not medically necesarry.’
  
  This is a symptom of the overall problem … why exactly does anyone have to ‘convince you’ that something is NOT medically necessary?!
  
  Shouldn’t all of these media sources, and doctors and these other entities that are promoting the test HAVE to CONVINCE YOU that it IS medically necessary?!
  
  Surely you aren’t ‘convinced’ by their highly scientific threats of ‘get tested or die’ or ‘it’s all part of being a responsible woman’.
  
  If an idiot in a white coat says take off all your clothes and let me scrape at your privates, you just say ‘well, okay … you’re the doctor’?!?!
  Or do you say why? Ask what the test is for … Maybe ask how accurate the test is … ask what your actual risk of having that problem are…
  
  I’m just saying … it seems things have gotten a bit turned upside down when you’re asking for a bunch of evidence proving that the test is bad, when you never asked for any evidence to prove that the test was any good in the first place?
  
  Since it is your doctor who will profit from testing you, maybe you should ask him/her to provide real proof that the test is beneficial, accurate and low-risk. If he/she can provide any real proof at all … and I am talking about actual studies, not just ‘this or that authority or council recommends …’
  
  I’m not beating you up on this, I am just saying …. isn’t any ‘test’ or ‘cure’ just a bunch of garbage until it is PROVEN to be effective? Not the other way around. So if it’s effective, show me the proof.
  
  We have real studies stating that it has caused much unnecessary and even harmful treatments of women. There are many who are slowly beginning to recognize loss of fertility due to these ‘minor’ follow-ups. We have studies showing that most female gynecologists DO NOT have paps. Gosh, shouldn’t they be the first in line if this test is so necessary?
  
  • 2097 – Jeanine (UK)
  Oct 01, 2010 at 11:58 pm
  I did ask my dr at one point as I was worried about having the test (this was before i turned 25 and was still pregnant) I told him I couldnt stop worrying about having a smear and that i didnt want one.
  he asked me,
  do you smoke? no, was my answer
  how old were you when you first had sex, i answered 21
  how many sexual partners? i answered 1..
  
  he said “chances are very unlikely that you’ll develop this disease but it’s always advised you have it done”
  
  and then i came into contact with a nurse i’d never met before, she knew nothing about me unlike my dr of 25 years and she basically told me my kids would be left without a mother if i didnt have the test…
  
  i have questioned people but i get conflicting information from them, the only one i can truely trust is my dr of 25 years (or should i say WAS as i had to change practice) because he’s known me and my family 25+ years and has seen how we dealt with cancer (family member died tragically of ovarian cancer when i was 5- she was 42) so he knows how we all feel about this dreadful disease.
  
  however, i cant help but feel my kids will be left without a mother because of what this nurse said to me.- its hardly surprising i’m looking for answers elsewhere.
  
  • 2098 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 12:57 am
  Jeannie, What the hell would a nurse know about pap smears other than how to take one. I bet she has not read one study about them. I bet also that Elizabeth knows a lot more about pap smears than she does. I’m pretty sure that nurses do not learn anything about the risks and benefits of pap smears. It’s not part of their job to make critical judgements. So that is why they would say something so stupid as what she said to you.
  
  • 2099 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 2:20 am
  Also Jeannie, I just remembered something. I have a nurse friend and when I told her about all the info on this blog she said she she’s never really thought about them. She just turns up for them on a regular basis because she been told to.
- Blogger 7:02 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2100 – jeannie danna
  Oct 02, 2010 at 4:38 am
  Mary,2098 & 2099
  
  Please spell this woman’s name right, it’s Janine. Out of curiosity, what is keeping this thread alive, while all the others except for Pie, die?
  
  ?
  • 2101 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 4:44 am
  Unless you dig for this information, you won’t find it and it was even harder 20 years ago. I started with medical journals and sadly, none of this information got into the popular press. It was Dr Raffle’s research that came as a wonderful surprise and it got into the press in the UK. The campaigns that followed though were clearly designed to draw back women who’d decided to stay away, real scare campaign stuff and of course, doctors became even more aggressive to get to their targets.
  
  In Australia there was a critical article in “Spectrum” a few years back and more recently Gerard Wain has made some comments about the program over-screening and over-treating young women, he’s said women under 25 are wasting their time testing and we should only test every 3 years. It is amazing to me that little factual information has ever been released to women here…censorship is a big feature of the program here and propaganda.
  Every time something based on evidence is said, it’s howled down by the cancer council or Papscreen, the usual stuff, “we’re busy saving lives, what is he talking about?”….because women have never been given the facts, these statements are very effective and also, few women would say they had a false positive and unnecessary treatment – the test either saved their life or they had a scare. The issues of informed consent and over-treatment are unknown to most women.
  After all these years there are still few sites that produce a honest overview of the benefits and risks, but lots print absolute scare-mongering nonsense.
  
  Jeanine, how many sexual partners has your partner had in his life? Did he use condoms? If it’s the former, your risk from this cancer is near zero and slightly higher if he always used condoms. Condoms give good (not perfect) protection and considering the top risk is 1%, that’s a significant fall from 1%.
  It’s all a Q of risk, I believe every woman should be given a brochure on colposcopy and various biopsies when they screen, so they understand what may happen – it’s so common, it’s unethical not to inform women of this risk in clear terms.
  They must also be told how many women need to screen for how long to save one woman – 1000 women need regular smears for 35 years to save one woman or a nurse taking 200 tests per year would save one woman every 38 years. Then factor in your risk profile and the risk of false positives….stop talking about third world rates that are irrelevant and wild and general statements like, “screening will prevent 90% of cases” – 90% of what? Make doctors and others explain these figures, they all serve to mislead women, put them on the spot – unless you know how often the cancer occurs, the 90% statement is meaningless…
  It can’t prevent 90% of cases because one-third of the women who get cancer have had a recent normal smear or series of normal smears. (it only prevents a maximum of 0.65% of cases, if you accept their figures…the number may be lower than that)
  
  The problem has always been no respect for informed consent, women being forced/pressured/deceived into testing with no balanced information – these woman are unable to make any assessment of the value of the test for them because the information they need is deliberately withheld by the govt, pro-screening groups and doctors.
  
  It’s taken decades but slowly the truth is emerging, I’m hopeful Papscreen has gone too far in it’s recent promotion, using a 21 year old woman when the govt is about to exclude this age group because of high risks for no benefit – also, they suppressed the fact this woman had a normal pap smear 6 months before diagnosis (confirming the evidence from overseas that screening does not pick up the very rare cases that occur in young women)
  I noticed their ads on TV have slowed down or stopped, haven’t seen one for a while, perhaps, they realized their exposure with more informed women about and decided to yank the ad and cancel the campaign.
  We are getting somewhere with baby steps and I’m hopeful for a couple of major breaks through the media later this year and possibly a couple of other high profile things.
  
  I’ve been pursuing this for over 25 years, I’m not stopping now.
  
  • 2102 – Kate (US)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 7:13 am
  The one problem I have with Dr. Welch’s book is that he does say treatments for abnormal paps are “minor.” Personally I thought that was offensive and could only be said by a man … other than that the book is definitely worth the read.
  
  • 2103 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 1:58 pm
  Ok … so, if you don’t want to believe us and are too lazy to read the articles & links & studies that various experts were willing to do to prove these statistics … maybe you’ll believe a nice generic website that is written by Harvard Medical School
  (Let’s see if this will post without the link … it is ADAM DOT About DOT com slash reports slash Cervical-cancer DOT com)
  
  See the section on Reliability and Accuracy.
  I have quoted it below:
  –The Pap smear is not a perfectly reliable measure of a woman’s risk for cervical cancer.
  In general, about 10% of Pap smears have abnormal results, but only about 0.1% of the women who have these results actually have cancer. In most cases, abnormal cells are low grade and not likely to progress to cancer or are due to benign conditions, including natural cell changes after menopause.–
  
  Now, if you read this and go ?!? WTF are they trying to say …
  
  Well … what they are saying is that if 100,000 women get tested, 10,000 of those WILL have abnormal results, and 10 of those will actually have cancer. Yes, they are saying only 10 women out of ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND tested will have cancer.
  
  10 out of 100,000
  Let’s now do the math — that is 10 divided by 100,000 gives you 0.0001 multiply by 100 to make this a percentage … and you get 0.01%. So even IF you believe all the hype and get tested, the experts of Harvard Medical School have STATED that you have a 0.01% chance of actually having cancer.
  
  Have any of you that had a pap and were told it was abnormal EVER told that all the abnormal means is that you have a 0.1% chance of actually having cancer? If so, were you told this BEFORE or AFTER they mutilated your cervix?
  
  Have any of you that were just ‘told to’ or asked when you last had a pap EVER told that according to one of the U.S. most esteemed medical schools (Harvard) you have a 0.01% chance of actually having cervical cancer? That is a 1 in 10,000.
  
  So here we are on this blog asking & questioning & arguing about which book or study is more correct, and Harvard has put it right out there they say women have a 0.01% chance of having CC, WELL that also means women have a 99.99% chance of NOT having cervical cancer.
  
  There it is in black & white on their own A.D.A.M. Harvard approved page … of course, they state it as vaguely as possible and direct it toward you HAVING CANCER instead of NOT. But they are counting on all of us women to be too stupid to ‘do the math’.
  
  • 2104 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 2:32 pm
  Sorry Janine for spelling your name wrongly. I always have at least one of my children distracting me or trying to play with my keyboard when I’m here.
  To answer your question Jeannie danna. This thread is still going because every day it seems that another woman discovers this site and finds out for the first time in her life that she has been deceived for years. I have been lied to for twenty years and I am furious.I never wanted them and I find them degrading. I think there’s a women like me out there and I think that this blog is just the beginning.
- Blogger 7:03 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2105 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 2:34 pm
  I meant to say “a lot of women like me out there”. (My son is grabbing the keyboard.)
  
  • 2106 – MarÃ¬a
  Oct 02, 2010 at 3:19 pm
  The truth is, I insist, you have to be very careful about what info you give your doctor.
  You should never tell them
  A) If you have had extramarital sex or any sexual activity with other person than your partner (male doctors in particular have an amazing double standard about this)
  B) If you’re a lesbian, bisexual, or have had same-sex experiences (I can swear my own sister has got real flack about this)
  C) If you have been sexually promiscuous in the past, they may smile at you, but they are amazingly double-faced about it, you have no idea what they really think about you
  d) if you have had an abortion. Never tell them this if you can avoid it; I have a friend whose nurse found out about one she had had one year agoand made her life hell about that.
  Ah, and even if you said the truth, they may not believe you. It is true my own doctor didn’t believe me when I told her I wasnt sexually active at the time and raN UNWANTED STD exams on me withut telling me!!!
  You may say, well this not the developing world, doctors here are nice and don’t care about my political, religious and philosophical ideas. They donÂ´t judge me.
  Really???
  There are religious wingnuts that practice medicine, and doctors are just as stupid and judgemental as the rest of us.
  
  • 2107 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 5:04 pm
  Maria, I agree with you … but I am even more insistent that we should only ever reveal information to the doctor that is RELATED to the complaint.
  
  My sexual preference, # of partners, promiscuity have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with pretty much ANYTHING I might see a doctor about … I am perfectly capable of deciding whether or not I WANT STD testing of any kind at any time.
  
  Personally I would fight the bill with your doctor for any unwanted tests … if you didn’t specifically agree to a test, then they should NOT be allowed to order it OR bill you for it.
  
  If I have symptoms of an STD … well TELL me what you suspect, and then I MAY allow the test to be done. STILL there is NO NEED to discuss your sexual life is NONE of their BUSINESS … and has NOTHING to do with anything UNLESS you are specifically going to them with a complaint about ‘pain during sex’ or ‘lack of labido’ … and even then they have NO business knowing how many partners you do or have had, or what gender they are.
  
  Really it is amazing the amount of personal information of all kinds that people freely give without even thinking about it.
  
  For example … why on earth does my DENTIST need to know about my entire medical history? Sure I can see wanting to know about medications I’m on, in case they might cause dental issues or something … but the fact that I had my tonsils out when I was 2 is really none of their business.
  
  Just as my employer information and all sorts of other private information that is on various forms. Even if I have health insurance through my employer, so what? There is NO legitimate reason that they would EVER need to know where I work (the address & phone), they have my insurance information and that is all.
  
  I agree with you that there are judgmental people in all professions. My husband made the mistake of mentioning our political affiliation at a church dinner … wow, stunning to see how even the pastor treats us differently after that … like we’re nuts or something …
  
  • 2108 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 5:13 pm
  Suze when I posted a link to a website with a video of “my first pelvic exam” (or something like that) a few pages ago, I was stunned that the nurse in the video asked the patient “How many partners have you had?” What ?!! That is outrageous. I have never been asked that and I would never answer such a personal question.
  
  • 2109 – Kate (US)
  Oct 02, 2010 at 5:37 pm
  When I was 18 I had a really bad stomach bug; their diagnoses was that I was pregnant. Even though I told them I was a virgin no one believed me and they said I had to take a pregnancy test. I said there was no way I was doing that and left … oh and they tried to get me to have a lap too- they said it was for.the health of the baby >.
- Blogger 7:03 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2110 – Phoenix (Sydney)
  Oct 03, 2010 at 4:07 am
  I got a reply from Elizabeth Boskey, from her website posted a few pages back saying that women are ‘required’ to have paps and pelvics before they can get a birth control script. She says-
  
  “It is, in fact, very much a typical “American” problem. Having read all the women’s stories that they’ve posted, I’m actually now working on a book to educate doctors about why it’s a real problem. Thanks for your comments.”
  
  That does sound to me like she realises how badly women are being treated and bullied, but I’m still wary, especially since she hasn’t changed her own ‘advice’ on her web page!
  
  On another subject – Planned Parenthood is starting to sound like a very two-faced organisation that is hiding behind the HOPE program while they still have the ulterior motive of forcing women to do what they demand. It seems they’ll do anything to get women into the office, stripped off, and up in stirrups where it is impossible to say ‘no’. Pack of raping bastards, really.
  
  We don’t have a comparable chain of doctors clinics like that here in Australia. I suppose the Cancer Council or Papscreen would be the closest, but neither of them do consultations, they just spout propoganda.
  
  • 2111 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 03, 2010 at 5:08 am
  OMG! Elizabeth Bosley is such a hypocrite! Her article clearly favors the yearly pap smear requirement for birth control. I wonder who is paying her to write such non-sense since she seems to accept that HARM is caused to women. Ask the lousy lady why she advertises the exact opposite.
  
  I wonder if she is getting bombarded by critics and emails of true stories of the nightmares and horrors women face trying to obtain prescription bcp. The whole system takes advantage and abuses women.
  
  • 2112 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 03, 2010 at 11:04 am
  Phoenix I think you’ll find Family Planning clinics like that. Or at least they used to be like that years ago when I went to them for the pill. I’ve been forced to have pap smears there for the pill and they used to do pelvic exams too. (They stopped that in the early 90s though, probably found out it was of little clinical value.) I don’t know if they still enforce it because I was one of the stupid women that used to comply so I’ve never tried to get the pill from them without a pap.
  • 2113 – Kate (US)
  Oct 03, 2010 at 11:41 am
  If you can’t get information and no one is giving it to you then you’re aren’t stupid for “complying.” When I went for birth control I searched the internet and couldn’t find any information except the propaganda. I feel horrible but I was lied to and coerced.
  
  • 2114 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 03, 2010 at 1:30 pm
  Phoenix I am amazed that you got a response at all. I emailed and so did various others and so far you are the only one who received anything back.
  
  It is frustrating when these docs make claims that they are sympathetic or realize there is a problem, yet they continue being PART of the problem.
  
  Like if she doesn’t agree with these practices, then she should tell them they’ll have to get a different Gyn to put their name on their webpage full of lies.
  
  Instead, there is this idea that ‘well, it’s their job … they can’t risk it just because of this’. If all these docs would actually at least refuse to be part of the problem, maybe the AMA and other entities would get the message.
  
  These docs make claims that they are sympathetic, but they are always quite happy to take a fee to do this test without giving all the information to patients.
  
  They all say ‘if we don’t offer the test’ then we’ll be held liable. There is a HUGE difference between ‘offering’ and recommending, bullying, and ‘requiring’.
  
  There needs to be a huge document that has ALL the fine print about false-positives, false-negatives, harm caused by follow-up treatments … require EVERY woman to read & sign this form in order to have a Pap.
  
  Also, none of this ‘while we’re at it stuff’ … require a specific office visit JUST for that purpose. Docs should NOT be allowed to do STD testing & paps etc… just cause they are ‘already in there’ for something else, UNLESS you have specifically consented BEFOREhand.
  
  If my auto mechanic can do it … so can a doctor. Provide me with a full written estimate with all details for me to sign off on before ANYTHING is done, and then NOTHING other than what is on this list is allowed without explanation and WRITTEN approval.
- Blogger 7:04 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2115 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 03, 2010 at 3:25 pm
  Women’s health is a VERY, VERY lucrative area in the States. If you can program all women to go in for a check-up and pap test every year from teens, that’s a lot of money and with annual testing, that also means a power of $$$ from excessive procedures and biopsies.
  It’s become the norm in the States and the programming of women goes back generations.
  Change starts with one woman becoming two and so on…in the end, doctors can’t “assume” or even “preach” to you…that’s ineffective with informed women.
  The excess is easily facilitated with the barriers placed around birth control, I firmly believe those barriers are unethical and illegal. If you are coercing a woman to have unnecessary invasive exams or have a test that legally requires her informed consent, you’re in trouble – those rules would apply with everything else, why is women’s health viewed differently? I think because women have just accepted it as a necessary part of being a woman or just put up with it, the coercion has become well established, almost regarded as in the “best interests of women” or “for her own good”, which is outrageous.
  
  If you look at the history of the annual exam…you’ll find it in Angela Raffle’s and Muir Gray’s book on “Screening” – the insurance companies, based on flimsy research, decided their policies were sounder if people were encouraged to have annual exams while well, catch disease before it started….so the exams were recommended in the States.
  
  The English decided to do a 10 year study. At the end of the study they found no difference between the two groups, same number of illnesses and deaths – the exams did not benefit the examined-group.
  Other studies have shown not only a lack of benefit, but harm caused to this group through stress and anxiety associated with these exams and unnecessary procedures and tests caused by false positives. (in testing and based on the exam – removal of healthy ovaries, hysterectomies, biopsies etc)
  The English decided not to start the annual exam, it didn’t help, but carried risk to the healthy symptom-free body.
  About a decade later a couple of doctors tried to start the exams (no doubt, after the money) and the doctors involved in the original study stopped the proposal in it’s tracks.
  That’s the reason these exams were never started in Australia as well.
  
  The Pill for some reason carried a requirement of a full gyn exam when it was released – which was stopped, as Mary says, in the early 90’s…
  I’m not sure why it was stopped, whether a woman took action against a doctor or the AMA (I hope so)….not sure.
  I’ve never taken the Pill…absolutely point blank refused to allow a Dr to control my access to contraception. I’ve never trusted doctors…also, I heard about the exams that were “required” and would never allow them, I knew they were unnecessary, there was enough information in medical journals at that time to suggest that was the case. Anyway, it was out for me.
  If I’d been able to get the Pill easily, I might have tried it…not sure – I was put off fairly quickly by friends being drawn into gyn procedures because of side-effects. The Pill affects the lining of the cervix and can cause bleeding (often after sex)
  I knew a couple of women who had awful gyn investigations only to be told the cervix sometimes bleeds when women are on the Pill – yet they weren’t told the fact before they started taking the Pill.
  
  I’ve never regretted rejecting the Pill, it saved me from a lot of unpleasantness – it was sometimes inconvenient, but fortunately my husband has always understood my concerns about the Pill and “women’s health”.
  When access became easier, it was still out for me – I still had concerns about side effects, but also, the “requirements” seemed to vary, some doctors still insisted on breast exams, others might do a pelvic exam as well (and that is still the case)…at the very least, most doctors take the consult as an opportunity to push pap tests. I simply didn’t want to fight that battle every time I needed a repeat.
  I feel it was the best decision of my life.
  
  • 2116 – Ruth (USA)
  Oct 03, 2010 at 3:47 pm
  Take a look at this article – it says severe dysplasia is often called carcinoma in situ.
  My understanding is that dysplasia is not cancer. http://www.wdxcyber.com/ncanc11.htm
  Any woman reading this article would be scared to death and probably allow a cone biopsy or even a hysterectomy.
  Who is protecting these women from harm? Why is this sort of information allowed to remain? It’s factually incorrect – the facts, figures and percentages are all way out as well.
  Dr Sherman wonders whether anyone has any references on the number of hysterectomies being performed for abnormal pap smears. If you have any information, let him know…maybe he’ll write another article.
  
  • 2117 – Jan (Sydney)
  Oct 03, 2010 at 9:47 pm
  Any woman still allowing routine pelvic exams needs to read this article. http://eprints.jcu.edu.au/4134/1/4134_Stewart_2006.pdf
  
  I have no idea why some doctors keep doing revolting exams that are not only unnecessary, but cause problems for us.
  
  Maybe once doctors didn’t know they were harmful and useless or paternalistic attitudes promoted the exam, but there is no excuse today.
  
  If your doctor suggests it, get the hell out of there…
  
  • 2118 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 2:29 am
  In the States, Ob/Gyn’s still require annual bi-manual pelvic exams for birth control pills, although studies say the exam holds NO clinical value and is unnecessary.
  
  Doctors need to STOP assaulting women through the withholding of Informed Consent. At least the Australian study mentions the NEED for women to have informed consent and choice.
  
  • 2119 – Frank
  Oct 04, 2010 at 3:06 am
  If these exams are unrelated to the Pill and doctors refuse you birth control without them, couldn’t you contact your local member or government official, a lawyer, the media or lodge a formal complaint with the medical authority – or all 4 measures?
  If you refuse and say why and then write to the Dr stating you plan to take it further, that should worry them. How can they justify the unjustifiable?
  Denying reliable birth control is morally and ethically wrong – at least to force exams of no value that risk your good health.
  Also, the potential for doctors to take advantage is very real in these circumstances.
  Every woman affected should meet and march in protest…force these doctors to explain themselves – what clinical reason gives them the right to deny healthy women birth control without these exams?
  This is unjust and that point needs to be made in the clearest terms.
  We did it during the Vietnam War, you must think about a rally…get the issue out in the open, get people talking and make doctors accountable for their actions.
  Even if they “recommend” these exams, which seems out of date given they’re not done elsewhere, they have no right to force any woman.
- Blogger 7:07 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2120 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 7:50 am
  The problem Frank (and I am speaking of here in the USA) is that these regular exams are treated with such high regard and the brainwashing that they are necessary never ends.
  
  Right now in the “Dr. Oz” website they are doing a future show about women who avoid doctors, and are looking for women who have not seen a gynecologist in at least 3 years. You can believe that when they put that show together, the women profiled will be seen as ignorant and not caring about their own health.
  
  Women like those who post here, and the hard facts about pelvic exams and paps won’t make that show. It will be one hour of gyn propaganda.
  
  His show is not the only one that is like that. Questioning the need for pelvic and paps is like being against everything that is just and good. Sounds ridiculous but that is the way it is here in the USA.
  
  • 2121 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 9:47 am
  The women who believe the propaganda are the biggest supporters too. Women who have biopsy after biopsy cling to the notion that they would be dead without them.
  
  Go into any webiste where women question if they must submit to pelvic exams and they are shot down with even more propaganda, and spoken to as if they are children.
  
  If anyone is interested in that Dr. Oz website it is the tab that says “Be on the show”. In it you will find that they are looking for women who avoid the doctor.
  
  I’ve tried asking quesitons on that website too. If your question does not meet the Dr. Oz propaganda machine it is pulled. I have often asked “experts” exactly what years it was in the USA that cervical cancer was the second highest killer of women. The question is never answered and always deleted. Yet that statement that “at one time cervical cancer was the second highest killer of women” is made constantly on pro-pap websites and shows like Dr. Oz.
  
  Dr. Oz is just another “talking head” pushing unneeded tests and juggling the numbers to suit the medical community.
  
  • 2122 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 11:16 am
  For those who live outside the US, Dr. Oz is considered some kind of god-like figure of medicine. That’s too bad that he’s being used in this way to support medical propaganda and to support the industry.
  
  I heard Dr. Oz actually founded the Complementary and Alternative Medicine program at Columbia-Pres hospital in NYC–although it closed due to lack of funds and support.
  
  I had the impression that Dr. Oz was open to alternative ways of thinking and treating patients. I guess I am WRONG! What a waste!
  He’s sold out, owned and controlled by the massive and oftentimes unethical healthcare industry.
  
  • 2123 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 11:49 am
  Cass – When you think about it, he needs sponsers for that show.
  
  What sponser would dare go against the gyn industry in this country?
  
  • 2124 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 1:30 pm
  Well, I agree that Dr. Oz is just basically a whore … he is selling his name & credentials for high pay & financial support.
  
  So at least it’s very obvious that he is gonna do whatever it takes to make money, instead of private docs who imply that they actually care.
  
  I certainly don’t support him or his show; but after reading the webpage to go on that particular show — it appears that they are intending to have a show specifically about women avoiding doctors for FINANCIAL reasons.
  
  You can see in their examples: have you avoided see a doctor/dentist because you lost your job … or you do not have health insurance …
  
  If I were to guess, this particular episode of the show will be intended toward promoting and education us on Obama’s ‘healthcare for all’. Since parts of it have already started going into effect … doctors and hospitals have had to embrace it and are now working on how to actually profit from it.
  
  Since they do not make much money on each person … they hafta see a LOT of people. So they want to promote ‘preventive’ or ‘well-person’ exams. They want LOTS of well people to schedule visits, since these take much less time & manpower – but offer higher reimbursements.
- Blogger 7:08 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2125 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 2:09 pm
  Suze – One of the parts of this new healthcare reform is the fact that cancer screening will have to be 100% covered.
  
  Oh joy! More pressure to have all those cancer screenings that you don’t want!
  
  I’ve tried asking on the Dr. Oz website why pelvic exams are not done in countries like Australia and the United Kingdom, and the women of those progressive, civilized countries are no worse off than we are – in fact I think they are healthier!
  
  The question never makes it, and I have yet to get a response.
  
  • 2126 – Phoenix (Sydney)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 2:56 pm
  I think I’ll head on over to the Dr Oz website and start asking questions! Why can’t American women get birth control without being forced to go through optional and inaccurate exams? Why do American doctors demand such control over women – is it a power trip for their egos and money? Why are women not allowed to have informed consent? Why are you forcing virgins to have pap smears and pelvics? Why are you still pap testing women who have no cervix after a hysterectomy?
  
  • 2127 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 3:18 pm
  Good Luck Phoenix – Like I said these questions never make the cut.
  
  • 2128 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 3:40 pm
  I initially thought Dr Oz was different because he seemed to be ethical and intelligent enough to deal with facts. Now someone who deals with facts, would tell women the facts and even if they believed in this testing and that it saved 0.65% of lives, you’d still tell women the truth…
  
  a) the cancer is rare, always was in your country and was in steady decline before screenings started – fact
  b) the test is unreliable and produces false positives and false negatives – fact
  c) approx a third of women who get cc have had a recent normal pap test or series of them – fact
  d) Approx 0.35% of women get false negatives
  e) Research shows that screening before age 25 doesn’t change the tiny death rate, but causes high numbers of false positives and over-treatment. Some women are left with problems after over-treatment – infertility, miscarriages, premature babies etc – fact
  f) False positive v frequency of testing chart – annual and biannual amount to over-screening and greatly increase the risks of false positives. Annual will send 95% of women for follow-up over their lifetime; 5 yearly down to 30%-55%. The amount of cancer caught is only marginally higher with annual testing and when you factor in, this is a rare cancer, every woman who wants testing should give a lot of thought to protection from false positives. Facts
  g) Cover the groups who should be excluded as the risks are too high for no benefit – women who’ve had full hysterectomies for benign conditions, women not yet sexually active or in lifetime mutually monogamous relationships- fact
  h) then cover informed consent and what that’s all about – a legal requirement for all cancer screening. All women have a right to say No, cancer screening can only ever be an option.
  i) risk factors for the cancer – accurate ones – fact
  j) go over the procedures so women are aware of the importance of minimizing false positives.
  
  Now I saw an episode of Dr Oz’s show and he did not deal with the facts, but stuck to the party line – half-truths, fashioned statistics, misleading statements….very disappointing.
  I had initially been impressed, now I’d turn the TV off…
  I know he doesn’t want to rock the boat, women’s health is very political and big business;almost fascist in nature in the States, very controlling, dishonest and harmful with no respect for women’s rights, but there was not even an attempt to inform women.
  It was concealment and propaganda all the way.
  
  I think the situation in the States is hard to believe, to think a country that prides itself on women’s rights could allow the current situation to continue….where women are routinely denied access to contraception UNTIL they agree to exams our doctors have known for decades are unnecessary and potentially harmful AND to force cancer screening which legally requires your informed consent. In other words, coercion is an approved method of dealing with female patients in medicine.
  Not for one moment do I excuse our government, doctors or pro-screening groups, but most women in this country can get the Pill with a simple blood pressure test and at least our medical associations have not recommended routine breast or pelvic exams for many years….probably decades for pelvic exams. (I doubt routine rectal exams have ever been approved here) We still have some doctors who push unnecessary exams or might deny a woman the Pill trying to force screening to reach a target payment….but I still feel we’re better off down here.
  I worry about my American and Canadian sisters and others around the world.
  
  • 2129 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 7:19 pm
  I think deep-down Dr. Oz is a sensible, ethical and intelligent healthcare provider.
  I bet some doctors start off this way when they enter the professional, but then the demands of the industry overwhelms them and they lose their way.
  
  People who visit this site and have personal horror stories due to the LACK of informed consent should write to Dr. Oz. There’s power in numbers. If he receives enough personal stories of heartaches women face daily in Women’s healthcare, I think he could be persuaded (maybe) at some point in the future to present the facts.
  
  We should NOT have to wait until the 22nd century to LOOK BACK at the heinous and unethical treatment women face today as a result of Paternalistic driven medicine!
- Blogger 7:09 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2130 – Phoenix (Sydney)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 10:53 pm
  Thanks Lynne, I’ll let you know how I get on! Censoring my questions would be as illegal as medical rape is, I suspect!
  
  Elizabeth – it has been spoken about recently in the press here (most notably by Kerryn Phelps) that older women should have a pelvic exam as part of their health check (annual or whatever, they didn’t specify).
  
  I’m pretty horrified by that. I can see women over 40 or 50 being forced to strip and spread so some smiling sadist can shove their fingers in their vagina, and to find WHAT, exactly, I must ask? You can’t find ovarian cancer, cervical cancer or the causes of heavy bleeding by doing one anyway! So what the hell for? If you think a woman has ‘problems’ and you want to start somewhere, then palpatate the abdomen for tenderness externally. Any older woman having fingers forced into her vagina will say ‘OWW!’ regardless of what you do during a pelvic! Morons.
  
  I’m approaching forty myself, and the first time I get a doctor mentioning a pelvic to me will get a royal speaking to and be reported to that other useles entity, the AMA.
  
  I don’t go to the doctor unless I think I’m dying anyway, but the first twit that tries the ‘older womans health check’ crap on me via a pelvic exam won’t be able to walk straight for a few days!! Check THAT out, doctor. Yes, I am tall, slim, fit, and have reasonably big muscles. Heh.
  
  To be truthful, I’m worried that this just might be the start of the pelvic exam nonsense for every woman of any age, down here in Oz. Holy shit…
  
  • 2131 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 04, 2010 at 11:45 pm
  Phoenix,
  You may have noticed some well-woman clinics around Sydney, some women already take part in the American style annual exam (excluding the rectal exam) but overall, these exams have never really taken off.
  My GP does not recommend routine pelvic exams for any symptom-free woman, at any age. It is not an approved screening exam for ovarian cancer or anything else.
  Kerryn Phelps may personally think the exam is a good idea for older women, but the clinical evidence doesn’t support that at all – if she recommends it to her patients, she should say why and also outline the risks before getting express informed consent.
  Some doctors may think it makes them sound thorough to recommend these exams, but I have no wish to have invasive exams for no or little value that risk my health.
  Profits would be another factor…
  I plan to write to Kerryn Phelps and put these questions to her. Where is the evidence of benefit? If it’s helpful, why isn’t it a recommended screening test? Is she aware of the evidence of risk and how difficult an exam it is for many women?
  I know a Dr here and there has tried to introduce the “American-type” well-woman exams into Australia and the UK, but thankfully, they haven’t really taken off…
  Some women feel like they should be doing something and these exams appeal to them, but the reality is they are much more likely to harm you.
  
  • 2132 – Rob- US
  Oct 05, 2010 at 7:23 am
  As was talked about previously, never tell a doctor about your sexuall history, partners, or any STD if you had them. Here is why- My wife went and got her medical exam report and I read it. Under “social history” its says “At risk for HIV/AIDS,hepatitis, or other sexually transmitted diseases: NO.
  If you tell them about any risky sexual thing you ever did or say you had more than one partner the doctor WILL put in your file that YES, you are at risk. From that time on that doctor, and any other that you go to will see that and grill you and do uneccessary tests. Remember that almost all doctors are now using electronic medical records which means ALL doctors you go to can potentionally see that you were listed as at risk. If the doctor is in that network they will absolutely see it. You know the rest of the story after that. With electronic records in place you need to be VERY protective of what you discuss with your doctors.
  I encourage everyone to go get copies of your medical records and see for yourself what they have put in it. I went and got mine too and it was an eye opener. You will be surprised at what they write in your records. Some of the comments ticked me off.
  Its VERY clear they do not believe you and look down at you like your a moron. They are all such arrogant jerks! If you get your records, make sure you ask for the ones that other doctors get. There are 3 types.
  
  • 2133 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 11:21 am
  What bothers me is that there is really NO WAY to get information in your ‘file’ corrected.
  
  I have had issues in the past with doctors billing for one specific thing (wrongly) to try to get a higher insurance reimbursement, then they end up having to downgrade the claim to something else. But if you look at my records, the original diagnosis code (for the higher – more serious thing) is still shown.
  
  So I go in for an ear infection, not horribly serious … just really uncomfortable and NOT going away without antibiotics. They originally diagnose this with a visit code that says I had a mid-grade to serious issue requiring 30 minutes of doctor intervention (and that there was a risk of serious harm or death).
  
  This was totally ridiculous and I disputed this with my insurance company, since I wasn’t even there for 20 minutes … and less than 5 with a doctor. Basically he looked in my throat, my nose & my ears and that was it.
  
  Of the 18 minutes total that I was there … 10 was spent in the waiting room.
  I did get the charge reduced to a lesser one.
  
  BUT my records still show the most serious code.
  
  I have a problem with this because I worked in medical billing systems for 13+yrs and I KNOW that it is not only common, but STANDARD to upcharge (put in a more serious code regardless of what actually happened). So you show up for a couple stitches, and they try to charge your insurance for surgical interventions.
  
  Now MOST of these charges are disputed by the insurance companies and get changed to a lesser code … but often are still of a higher degree than what actually happened.
  
  This is a HUGE issue because all of these changes happen in BILLING. They never are reflected in your patient files. So even if you argue with your bill, your patient record will forever show the more serious code.
  
  So it looks like I’ve had some horrible problem, when I NEVER did. If I am ever asked about it, I tell the truth – but they see what my record says and now have ‘proof’ that I am a liar. From then on they ignore EVERYTHING I say because I even lie about stupid pointless stuff.
  
  So what is a person to do? I have NEVER found a way to successfully change patient history records. It’s worse than trying to get something invalid off of your credit report – IMPOSSIBLE.
  
  • 2134 – Rob- US
  Oct 05, 2010 at 12:47 pm
  I now have insurance where I can see on line what the doctor bills for and what they get paid by the insurance company. One charged the insurance for a “surgical procedure”. When I questioned it they admitted it was for drawing blood! I see the outrageius claims doctors are making to get more money. It really irritates me. We are ALL paying it in higher premiums.
- Blogger 7:09 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2135 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 1:38 pm
  They’re trying to introduce electronic medical records in Australia. I really hope they don’t. If that is introduced I will never go to a doctor again.
  
  • 2136 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 1:40 pm
  With electronic records I suppose there’s no escaping lying about when your last pap smear was.
  
  • 2137 – Kate (US)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 2:01 pm
  Since we won’t be able to lie when they ask when your last pap was just say “f*uck you.” That’s what I do … literally.
  
  • 2138 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 3:25 pm
  Isn’t it bizarre that women feel under pressure to lie about this test, which is supposed to be an option….nothing more?
  Most women still don’t feel comfortable simply saying they’ve rejected cervical screening – an informed decision.
  Increasingly women are feeling the tightening surveillance and regulation of their bodies.
  I agree, electronic records are a bad idea…if you don’t “get on” with one Dr, it probably goes down in your file that you’re a “difficult” patient. I suppose that’s why I always try to be polite when I decline any screening (I’ve rejected mammograms as well) – to avoid a negative comment on my file.
  I do think electronic records would enable Papscreen and other groups to increase the surveillance and coercive measures used against women – your Dr could tap into their database and see whether you’ve had a pap smear in the last 2 years. Why should evidence be required that you’re telling the truth about having an optional screening test? I think it’s insidious how this test has basically become a law; it’s certainly regarded that way by most women – something you must do whether you want it or not.
  Not so…
  
  • 2139 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 4:42 pm
  I REFUSE to answer a question about when my last pap smear was to any doctor.
  
  I say that I REFUSE to have a discussion about pap smears, until I am presented with Informed Written Consent outlining the TRUTHFUL risks factors associated with screening based on sound scientific research.
  
  We have the right to refuse to answer any question a healthcare provider asks! If they start pressuring then just walk out and end the discussion.
- Blogger 7:10 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2140 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 7:13 pm
  Cass, How do most US doctors react when you stand up for yourself? They are the most militant when it comes to women’s “healthcare”.
  My American colleague said she was reduced to tears on several occasions by doctors abusing her, one even shouted at her. She reported the doctors but got nowhere, she was simply told to have her pap tests and she’d have no problems with doctors.
  Can you imagine that being said to a man treated in the same way, say after refusing a rectal exam or the PSA blood test?
  
  • 2141 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 7:51 pm
  Elizabeth … I have had doctors respond in a variety of ways. Many are a bit indifferent, like ‘ok whatever’ and then they move on to another topic. BUT they do NOT want to have any real discussion on it.
  
  I will say that nurses are HORRIBLE to me when I stand up for myself or refuse to ‘just follow orders’. They are much worse than any doctor in my experience, and they are the ones with a LOT of control over what gets put into your records.
  
  So if you don’t get along with the nurse – you are MUCH more likely to have nasty notes attached in your file.
  
  Some doctors are very hostile and bullying … female doctors are WORSE … they do all this AND act like you’re a complete idiot. I feel like they are just completely offended that any woman who hasn’t gone to medical school even dare to question them.
  
  It’s amazing how this whole topic has turned women against one another. I had so hoped that female doctors would benefit women, but they seem to be even more approving of the paternalism.
  
  • 2142 – Kate (US)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 8:28 pm
  I was reading about pap smears on wikipedia and the effectiveness of them was way off. It said since the pap test was introduced it has CC by 99% in some places. The article also said it could reduce CC by 80%. Next to that line it says dubious – discuss, when I clicked on the link it was basically dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pap_test#Effectiveness
  
  • 2143 – Kate (US)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 8:38 pm
  I was also reading an article on NPR about getting flu shots at dept stores. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130242508 At the end of the article a doctor was taking about his concerns about how this will effect the doctor/patient relationship. Because if women get their flu shots somewhere else then he can’t remind them about getting their mammogram and pap test. What a class act (rolls eyes).
  
  • 2144 – Ruth (USA)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 9:47 pm
  PP is such a disappointment – look at this blurb on paps and HPV testing and look at the wording that has been carefully put together to mislead women. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/womens-health/pap-tests-hpv-tests-19875.htm
  The second most common cancer in the world (no mention it was always rare in developed countries) and the suggestion that only 1 in 1000 HPV-infected women will get cancer BECAUSE of screening, use of condoms and STD testing – how dishonest!
  It’s only the rare cases that go on to cancer anyway…those things have an impact too, especially using condoms, BUT the way it’s worded it makes it sound like it would be an epidemic without screening – not true!
- Blogger 7:13 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2145 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 05, 2010 at 10:47 pm
  Well, as you can imagine I had one male doctor tapping his foot and became angry and irritated with me for not agreeing to have annual pap smears. Another time and with a different doctor, I tried stating facts from scientific studies and he cut me off and continued with his lecture.
  
  Yet another time I just walked out and the doctor was somewhat shocked. I reported him to the State Licensing Board for his rude and unethical behavior.
  
  All of these expereinces felt so cold and aggressive as my concerns were dismissed entirely. It’s pretty sad, but I won’t give up. How come women are not acknowledged as adults with their own opinion?
  
  I always say that the medical industry is a sexist and misogynistic boys club that makes me physically and emotionally ill.
  
  • 2146 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 9:38 am
  Kate – Thanks for supplying that article on the flu shot.
  
  Yeah that sounds right – Go in for a flu shot and be bullied for a pap smear. Why didn’t the good doc use prostate screening as an example?
  
  • 2147 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 06, 2010 at 9:48 am
  A recent article from The Orlando Sentinel in which a female gynecologist admits that “Paps were the hook” to get women to come in every year. http://www.floridahospitalgyncancer.com/en/news/201006/do-doctors-screen-cervical-cancer-too-often
  
  I am disgusted by this; like Cass and Suze stated, these seems to be LAWS for women to follow. It’s my body and I am not doing any of this nonsense.
  
  P.S. Kate, when you say f*ck you to your doctor when they ask when your last Pap Smear was, what do they say and/or how do they react? I LAUGHED when I read that you say this to them. You are great!
  
  • 2148 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 06, 2010 at 9:52 am
  I never wanted to break any laws which could have me wind up in jail, because I know all too well that forced gynecological exams are required of every inmate. Here the inmates on Rikers Island in NYC are now given a CHOICE; they used to be forced into “isolation” if they refused the exam. But read the last line which almost made me throw up: It’s for their own good and we’re sticking to this story”. http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/07/14/512/08260
  
  • 2149 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 9:59 am
  Kate notice how he paternalistically say you’re due for your pap smear or mammogram, but you should “consider” a pneumococcal vaccine. Because that could apply to either gender.
- Blogger 7:15 am on August 3, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2150 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 06, 2010 at 10:00 am
  Here is a GREAT answer to a 16 year-old girl who said her mother is trying to force her to undergo a gynecological exam. I think this answer to “kick and scream” and let everyone in the doctor’s office know she does not consent to such an invasive exam is EXCELLENT and should be what ALL WOMEN do so doctors cannot keep forcing them to undergo such barbaric procedures. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080831022156AASM1SD
  
  • 2151 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 06, 2010 at 10:04 am
  P.S. The Rikers Island Class Action Suit entitled each woman forced to undergo a forced gynecological exam $20,000.00 apiece. That is a HUGE step in the right direction so doctors know women can sue for forced exams. This forced examining of inmates for minor infractions, such as “jumping turnstyles” (so as not to pay subway fees) and it’s bad enough women went to jail for something so utterly stupid, but to be forced into such an invasive exam, thank GOD they were aawarded $20,000.00 apiece for that horrible exam.
  
  • 2152 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 06, 2010 at 10:08 am
  Unfortunately, these girls dropped their class action suit against the New York Board Of Education. They attended a “hooky party and instead of suspending them for not going to school, they forced all five girls to under STD testing and forced gynecological exams. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E2DD163BF932A35751C0A9629C8B63&sec=health Now the Board has agreed to stop forcing pregnancy testing, etc. on girls. This is disgusting and why aren’t their parents aware this testing goes on or are their parents in cahoots with the Board?
  
  • 2153 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 10:49 am
  Torrance – We are constantly led to believe that these exams are “nothing” and we should “get used to them”, but for prisoners and misbehaved school girls they are used as punishment!
  
  • 2154 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 06, 2010 at 11:17 am
  They all seem to be controlled forms of rape to keep women uneasy and fearful for our existences, Lynne. I am sickened every single day and nothing we say or do gets doctors to back down. I swear it’s an Old Boys’ Network to make sure women are disease-free in case they get involved with us. I am disgustd reading that STD tests are performed without patients’ consent; how do these women know when these tests are performed against their knowledge or wishes? Do they receive the bill for the procedure and THIS is what tips them off that STD tests were performed? I am so upset reading all this stuff. Yes, I have heard my entire life that I am insane for refusing anything gynecological, that “all women do it”; and until I found this website, I truly thought I was the only woman who’d repeatedly refused such barbaric examinations.
- Blogger 6:02 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2155 – Kate (US)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 11:19 am
  We should all go over and post on the NPR site, I need to get to a real computer and stop using my phone because it’s a pain to post. Anyway, we need to get the attention of anyone. Please go over and post! http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130242508
  
  • 2156 – Phoenix (Sydney)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 2:04 pm
  Torrance, you are in no way insane for refusing gyno testing. The majority of countries don’t do pelvic exams at all, and there is some leeway about saying yes or no to paps. I think you’re normal and intelligent to say ‘NO!’. You know far more about how you feel and what is good for your own body than any rapist doctor does!
  
  • 2157 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 3:34 pm
  Kate, I am the ‘Susan’ already arguing with Nick on there about the FACT that the test is not accurate.
  
  Apparently everyone thinks that since there isn’t any other test available (they just don’t talk about the CSA) – then the pap is ‘better than nothing’. Personally with a 10% false positive for 0.01% accuracy … I think NOTHING is much better
  
  Obviously I really believe that as I have NEVER had a pap, and never intend to.
  
  • 2158 – Kate (US)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 3:49 pm
  Thank you Suze, I agree with you and that Nick guy won’t read our links because he thinks it’s just our opinion. That other guy with everyone should get the HPV vaccine … omg we can make that choice for ourselves! What gets my goat is that doctors never let me make the decision -they always make it for me … not that I comply, but still. But NPR is a news station, maybe we can get their attention??
  
  • 2159 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 4:02 pm
  Any Dr who talks over you or dismisses you, is not a Dr you should be seeing….
  I would end the consult and leave, but if I were American and every Dr was obsessed with testing and I was being denied medical care, I’d take it further….
  
  One of the posters here, Caren, will have no trouble getting her BC in the future, she went over the Clinics head and now knows the “requirement” of a pap smear/pelvic exam for BC is only a recommendation and to insist on them or deny a woman birth control, is a violation of the Patient Bill of Rights. It shouldn’t be the case that only the rare women who take it further are spared this annual and completely unnecessary ordeal. Caren will be flagged as an informed woman (or a threat or a troublemaker) and be treated respectfully in the future.
  
  The campaigns have been very successful and even the language used by doctors is all intended to reinforce in your mind that you must have pap smears or you’re crazy if you don’t…a bit of a renegade.
  The use of “are you due?” – no hint of, “do you want the test?”….or “do you have pap smears?”. The words “should” and “must”…if you look at the linked article by Judith Bush, you’ll see all of these things are a deliberate psychological strategy used against women to force as many as possible into screening – you’ll recall they MUST get 80% to screen to have some hope of justifying the vast investment in this testing. (no one cares about the women harmed by this testing)
  
  The vitally important target is the reason govts and doctors feel it’s fine to suppress risk information and to mislead women. Of course, that’s outrageous and the right thing to do is to come clean and allow women to make their own decisions – if fewer than 80% want to screen, scrap the program, save millions and allow women who want to screen to have a free test at their GP’s surgery. Wind up the propaganda and censorship machines, scrap incentive payments and channel that money into other areas.
  
  If you factor in all the negative outcomes with this screening and the extra cost of caring for women left with issues (infertility, miscarriages etc) and for the resulting premature babies, I doubt in real terms this testing achieves much at all…IMO the negatives would outweigh the handful of positives. If the emphasis were on prevention and acting promptly to symptoms, we’d probably save more lives – and a small number of women will always die of cc – testing misses one third of women who get cc. We might even save a few of these women if the emphasis shifted to prevention and prompt action – we know the false negative women may be disadvantaged by the “normal” smear and delay seeing a Dr for symptoms.
  
  In the UK, Australia and NZ we know doctors have a vested interest in cervical screening – it’s the rarest cancer by miles that we currently screen for, but it’s also the only testing that attracts a financial incentive when doctors hit targets. Proof positive the pressure is based on political and financial motives, not our health.
  Mentioning these payments and targets makes doctors very uncomfortable because every effort has been made, once again, to keep women in the dark. Dr’s and others know these secret payments are unethical (and possibly more) and don’t want you to know about them or be reminded of them when they’re busy risking your health and violating your rights trying to achieve that target.
  I use that expression because few women are giving informed consent – I could, but because of my knowledge I have always refused this test and always will…an invasive, unreliable test for a rare cancer does not interest me and even less so with my low risk status.
  Looking at this program as a public health objective with no regard for the individual woman is unacceptable. This is not a numbers game, we’re dealing with women’s lives, bodies and rights.
- Blogger 6:04 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2160 – Kate (US)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 4:46 pm
  I hate to keep bringing up the NPR story, but I’m amazed we haven’t been censored by a major media source! Please contribute! Maybe we can finally get some major attention! Strength in numbers 🙂
  
  • 2161 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 7:56 pm
  Re: The NPR site – i just registered and am waiting for confirmation so I can view my opinion too!
  
  • 2162 – Beth (UK)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 9:54 pm
  “Solving the over-diagnosis dilemma” – new article, but they miss one important point: respect for informed consent http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/102/9/582.full
  
  • 2163 – Sienna (Aust)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 10:12 pm
  I found this piece from the SMH, which is interesting…why do they keep saying 1 in 11 women will get breast cancer? It’s nothing like that, more like 1 in 68. http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/behind-the-screen/2008/08/22/1219262531538.html
  I notice on the last page they say ovarian cancer is rare and screening is more likely to produce lots of false alarms – yet the pap smear does that for an even rarer cancer and no one cares about that, talks about it or even admits it. it’s like…we’ve got this screening program and have to make it work – roll in the women courtesy of scare campaigns and by doctors after target payments and let’s get going with the mass biopsies.
  
  • 2164 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 06, 2010 at 10:45 pm
  Exactly Sienna … you can see in various articles about Pelvic exams for ovarian cancer. They say things like ‘while this exam is not very effective for diagnosing ovarian cancer it is the ONLY method available’
  
  It is the same for cervical cancer … they say well, paps are all that are available so we might as well use them.
  
  Well that’s just stupid. That is like saying well, the only way to definitively diagnose Alzheimer’s is exploratory surgery … so we might as well chop open every persons head. Well, uhhhh NO … is what people say to this.
  
  And rightly so.
  
  Why is it not so obvious an answer when they say well scraping your cervix doesn’t work … but we do it anyway, cause it is all we know how to do. It’s not effective, but it’s lucrative.
  
  THAT is the BIG problem, the money-making machine is in place … once it gets started it is VERY difficult to stop it.
- Blogger 6:04 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2165 – Beth (UK)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 12:13 am
  The argument against ovarian cancer screening is that the only tests are too unreliable to use for a rare cancer.
  I totally agree with you, Sienna.
  I’ve heard a few people say that if this test were reviewed today, it wouldn’t be allowed because the cancer is rare and the test unreliable and causes huge over-treatment.
  The money has been spent and many are making a good living from the testing and over-treatment, it’s also regarded as a hot potato politically to rock the women’s health boat…so no one has the balls to stop the damage. It’s all too hard, better to keep it all going and hopefully, women will never work out they were conned and their health put at risk.
  
  • 2166 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 5:22 am
  Here’s an article (2009) from the American Journal of Medicine regarding coercive healthcare for prescription birth control. The link is a PDF and I hope it works. http://jama.ama-assn.org.ezproxy2.library.usyd.edu.au/cgi/reprint/285/17/2232?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=harm+of+overscreening+pap+smear&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&resourcetype=HWCIT
  
  First read an excerpt from the article regarding the LACK of ETHICS in Healthcare!
  
  Ethical Considerations:
  
  Perpetuating medically unnecessary requirements for examinations also raises important ethical questions. Using the hormonal contraception prescription to coerce compliance with routine screening involves unexamined premises. First, it assumes that policy makers rather than women are the appropriate decision makers. Second, it assumes that the health impact of missed screening for these women is more significant at that specific time than the health impact of delayed or less effective contraception. Women who are informed about the implications of a decision to defer screening should have the right to make the decision. Even if a change in requirements did result in decreased routine screening for unrelated conditions, would it be ethical to withhold hormonal contraceptives on this basis? In other areas of medical care, this would not be perceived as appropriate.
  
  • 2167 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 5:41 am
  The previous article is from the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA).
  
  Here’s another little excerpt from JAMA about breast and prostrate screening:
  
  Rethinking Screening for Breast Cancer and Prostate Cancer
  Laura Esserman, MD, MBA; Yiwey Shieh, AB; Ian Thompson, MD
  JAMA. 2009;302(15):1685-1692.
  
  After 20 years of screening for breast and prostate cancer, several observations can be made. First, the incidence of these cancers increased after the introduction of screening but has never returned to prescreening levels. Second, the increase in the relative fraction of early stage cancers has increased. Third, the incidence of regional cancers has not decreased at a commensurate rate. One possible explanation is that screening may be increasing the burden of low-risk cancers without significantly reducing the burden of more aggressively growing cancers and therefore not resulting in the anticipated reduction in cancer mortality.
  
  Gee, is this study of any real surprise? We intuitively knew it all along.
  
  • 2168 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 07, 2010 at 9:29 am
  This funny lady wrote a great blog and included her back-and-forth correspondence between herself and Planned Parenthood in Southern Arizona, demanding an appointment to refill her yearly prescription for birth control. She would NOT let up on her refusal to be forced into an exam. She finally got her way and good commentary followed. http://crackerscentral.com/wordpress/?p=57
  
  My question for everyone here is: Don’t a LOT of women complain and ask why they are forced into these things? What ammunition can women BRING so they are not forced or coerced into these humiliating exams? Frankly, I’d want to bring Suze with me to any regular doctor’s appointment, but I won’t go for anything because this gynecological pressuring always is brought up. I am 43. For those of you in my same age group or older, do your physicians ACCEPT your right to refuse these invasive exams, or, like Suze or Kate, do you just get up and leave to show them that’s the end of the conversation and attempt at force?
  
  • 2169 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 9:57 am
  I was finally able to post on that NPR site. I wonder how long it will take before they start refusing comments.
- Blogger 6:06 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2170 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 10:05 am
  Torrance I am in my fifties and recently when I went in for insomnia I started to get up to leave when my doc would just not let up on the pap and pelvic issue.
  
  I then asked her in a straight forward manner if she was telling me that I had to have a pap smear and a pelvic exam to receive meds to help me sleep?
  
  I was getting up out of the chair and she knew I would have walked out the door.
  
  Then her tone changed even though I could see she was very disgusted.
  
  • 2171 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 11:00 am
  It doesn’t seem as bad in Australia, at least if you’ve never used a doctor for contraception. It seems these consults and pre-natal checks are the times doctors ramp up the pressure. If I go to the Dr to have my cholesterol checked, I set the agenda and if my Dr is on holidays and I’m seeing one of her partners, the Dr may ask if I’m due or up-to-date for a pap test and I simply advise them I made an informed decision many years ago not to have screening. it usually goes no further, it’s clear I’ve made an informed decision. Mammograms rarely come up; doctors are not paid to reach screening targets with them…even though breast cancer is much more common, it’s paps that might be raised, a sure sign it’s the incentive payment that’s prompting the question.
  I get the impression that doctors don’t think informed consent matters with cervical screening, not giving women an opportunity to make an informed decision has always been the cornerstone of this program, so why would they change all of that now?
  
  • 2172 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 11:08 am
  I probably should add that this is a surgery I shopped around to find, the female doctors are respectful. There would be other doctors out there engaging in coercion, but I think most doctors are smart enough to pick their targets. There are still cases here of GP’s refusing the Pill without a pap smear.
  Once again it’s a try-on so the victims are usually young or shy or uneducated and overwhelmed by the Dr.
  Some doctors seem shocked when you decline screening – most women just have them, they’ve accepted they’re an “important and necessary part of preventative healthcare”…in other words, they’ve accepted the propaganda without looking further and doctors feel the “talking” is unwarranted or over….in fact, the talking never began. This test and it’s widespread acceptability slid past without proper evaluation and scrutiny.
  
  • 2173 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 07, 2010 at 12:09 pm
  Lynne; you are the best and I LOVED that you got up and started to leave. I agree with you, Elizabeth, that doctors seem to have a knack for choosing their targets/victims; women who are shy or don’t know any better. I still think if I went to a doctor today and said I have NEVER had anything done gynecologically to myself, they would put severe pressures on me and I don’t think the American Medical Association would do a thing about such pressuring.
  
  • 2174 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 12:28 pm
  Torrance you are right – the AMA would listen to you and then write some condescending letter to you like you were some school girl.
  
  I can’t believe that the one poster in that NPR site actually had the nerve to write that he didn’t believe that coercin exists when it comes to pap smears.
  
  What planet is that guy from?
- Blogger 6:06 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2175 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 07, 2010 at 12:45 pm
  I just read that supposed J B Doc on there when I signed up. They can’t outright claim they force us, but EVERY woman has experienced SEVERE pressures to submit to forced gynecological exams; in my case, starting when I was eleven. Picture all the young girls going through this and older women and every woman inbetween.
  
  • 2176 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 1:04 pm
  Torrance – He uses the word “riduculous”. Isn’t that the typical doctors’ way? just label us as crazy and move on.
  
  I especially didn’t like when he hoped that the one poster “wasn’t one of the unlucky ones” – and he doesn’t think coercin exists? Isn’t this one of the doctors favorite tactics, scaring us into believing that we will die without this test?
  
  Anyone here feel free to thank him for making our point as I have!
  
  • 2177 – Hexanchus (male – US)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 1:15 pm
  Just in case there’s any doubt that the incentives to force women in the U.S. to undergo unwanted exams for a BCP prescription aren’t at least in part financial, let’s do a little math.
  
  There are approximately 62 million women of child bearing age in the U.S.
  28% of these (17.36 million) use hormonal birth control.
  Cost of consult vs. exam ( circa 2005 at PP from link posted by Torrance in #2168) is $50 vs. $140
  
  Multiply the difference by the number of women using BCP and it comes out to a whopping $1.562 billion difference!
  
  ’nuff said…..
  
  • 2178 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 1:32 pm
  I’ve posted there too under another name. I think it looks good that so many women have all complained about the same thing. Makes him look like a liar.
  
  •
  • 2179 – Hexanchus (male – US)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 2:25 pm
  More fun with numbers….
  
  If there are 62 million women of childbearing age that are expected to get an annual pap/exam (@$140/exam, which I think is low) to detect 11,000 new cases of cervical cancer, that works out to a whopping $789,000.00 per case discovered.
  
  And that doesn’t take into account all the additional costs for the colposcopies, biopsies, etc. for all the false positives.
- Blogger 6:07 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2180 – Kate (US)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 7:23 pm
  Ladies, you’re all awesome for your contributions to the NPR site! Day 2 andvall our posts are there; it would be awesome if NPR listened to us and did a story 🙂
  
  • 2181 – Phoenix (Sydney)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 8:03 pm
  I’m on the NPR site too! I can’t believe the way some posters are ready to defend their right to abuse women and force them to do paps and pelvics.
  
  • 2182 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 9:40 pm
  Did you notice DocJB’s Freudian Slip regarding pap smears on the NPR postings?
  
  “I would coerce or bring it up three time or call the patient to keep reminding. I might ask questions or educate about its importance, suggest that she consider making an appointment, note it in the chart, and leave it at that.”
  
  He does mean coercion as far as I am concerned, although he said that was a typo.
  
  This doctor like many others are fooling themselves into believing they are providing informed consent when INDEED they are NOT! It’s a manipulation and exaggeration of stats. How dare he suggest that coercion does NOT exist when just about every American woman has a story to tell about it!
  
  No pap, no pill…is coercion and blackmail at its finest.
  
  • 2183 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 07, 2010 at 9:57 pm
  Yes, I certainly noticed DocJBs slip. I am also not surprised. I highlighted his
  ‘educate about its importance’ phrase …
  
  like I care whether HE thinks the test is valid or important?! I care about the ACTUAL facts regarding the test.
  
  Also you see that earlier he states that all the women in his life WILL TEST… not that they decided to test or that he cares about their views or opinions about the test, he just says ‘it WILL be done’
  
  Personally think that NO doctor should be allowed to biopsy or cut on another person without having it done to themselves.
  
  YES I am literally saying that I think that heart surgeons should have their ‘chests cracked open’ before they can tell me that the pain isn’t that bad …
  
  Not to do specific damage, but for them to actually experience the pain the anxiety and the long-term effects of such interventions.
  
  I think every female doc needs to have punch biopsy AND LEEP with just as little pain meds as every other woman BEFORE they can ever tell another woman she should have this done.
  
  EVERY male doc should have to have a ‘little piece’ of his penis punched out or sliced off (LEEP) BEFORE he can recommend such things to any woman. Hmmm… not willing to mutilate a perfectly healthy part of YOUR body?!?! Well, then why are you so quick to do it to OTHERS?!
  
  Certainly this would make docs think twice or a couple hundred times before EVER thinking that such methods are valid.
  
  I am amazed at how willing they are to just take a hot poker & cauterize the whole cervical wound left from a conization. I mean where else on your body would this be done?!? Well, I cut that little suspicious mole off your back … then I stopped the bleeding by burning a big blackened crater.
  
  No more bleeding, but it will be painful .. and look horrible, and probably have other issues while the Nth degree burn is healing, but hey it’s not bleeding anymore right?!
  
  Sorry all, I am just so sickened by this whole facade of concern that is really hiding a sick intent to humiliate and harm women.
  
  They got all this ‘pink pride’ stuff now … wanting to turn my facebook pic pink… WTF?!?!? No, I support FACT awareness… not cancer fiction awareness.
  
  • 2184 – Ruth (USA)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 6:14 am
  This annoyed me… the presumption that women who don’t test might have a history of sexual abuse (PDF) and should be questioned about it. http://www.jfponline.com/pdf%2F5110%2F5110JFP_OriginalResearch1.pdf No mention that some women may have made an informed decision not to screen and that screening is not compulsory.
  
  This thinking is the norm with this testing, it really is very poor – women treated like bodies with no rights who shouldn’t have independent thoughts or actions. If they do, something is wrong with the woman.
- Blogger 6:08 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2185 – PappyLand
  Oct 08, 2010 at 8:47 am
  I think going in for your annual and getting the normal or abnormal results is better than worrying for years about what you may or may not have.
  
  • 2186 – Kate (US)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 9:02 am
  Or you could just not worry at all and focus on having a happy life. Are you a troll btw?
  
  • 2187 – Rob- US
  Oct 08, 2010 at 10:43 am
  
  Quote: “Cost of consult vs. exam ( circa 2005 at PP from link posted by Torrance in #2168) is $50 vs. $140”
  
  Where can you get a pap test and the forced breast and pelvic exams that go with it for that cheap? My wife’s last visit was 240.00 PLUS lab fees. It was 230.00 10 years ago at a gynecologist office. It is MUCH more expensive than that $140.00. The doctors do not want to lose that cash cow. That is why they push it.
  
  • 2188 – Rob- US
  Oct 08, 2010 at 10:46 am
  
  2185 – PappyLand
  Oct 08, 2010 at 8:47 am
  “I think going in for your annual and getting the normal or abnormal results is better than worrying for years about what you may or may not have.”
  
  And WHAT if your one of the 95% of women who test that will have a false abnormal?
  You do not mind having pieces cut out of your healthy cervix FOR NO GOOD REASON? I think I would worry MORE about that.
  
  • 2189 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 11:07 am
  PappyLand … why exactly are you trolling here? If you enjoy paps, good for you. Leave the rest of us alone!
  
  The issue you aren’t apparently aware of is that there are FALSE negatives AND positives.
  
  So if you have a pap, you really DO NOT know anything more than those of us who don’t … you just are much more likely to have damaging followup procedures (unnecessarily).
  
  And a big thing is now that you’ve had an abnormal, you are told to come back MORE OFTEN … so your likelihood of more false positives is GREATLY increased.
  
  So you are now on a merry-go-round of constant paps & results & further testing & more paps … check out other forums and see how many women they are that gratefully choose a hysterectomy ‘just to be safe’.
  
  Sadly they think they are cancer survivors, but really they are just abused survivors of a horrible test & a complete lack of ethics on informed consent.
- Blogger 6:09 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2190 – Anna B. (Cont. Europe)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 12:13 pm
  from the NPR site-
  
  “A. 50/100,000 to 7/100,000 IS statistically significant and we screen for and treat diseases more rare than that.”
  
  WHERE ON EARTH he sucked that 50/100,000 out? where?? WHICH countries without screening? Thrild world rate yeah? that guy is manipulating, as doctors do. FUCKING JERK.
  
  I checked quickly on the WHO cancer mortality database the crude MORTALITY rates per 100.000, http://www-dep.iarc.fr/WHOdb/WHOdb.htm for European countries that don’t have a formal screening programme and the mortality rate is usually 3,x- 4,x per 100.000. (for Finland, as we know the country with the lowest rates in the world, and screening programme http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2409887/ from 30 every 5 yearly it was 2.2 for 2008, 1.6 for 2007, 2.1 for 2006, etc) so we are talking about numbers in that range. if we assume that every third person dies who gets the cancer, than we can calculate the incidence rate something in the 9,x- 10-,x range as well, but NEVER as 50. Only if they calculate every disgusting office procedure as cancer incidence, but than the homo sapiens should have died out in cervical cancer long time ago, sorry doctor.(sorry for the typos, im supposedly working now, not much time)
  
  • 2191 – Kate (US)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 12:21 pm
  Ugh, I saw that too. That ‘doctor’ said he wasn’t go to post anymore because we made his head spin … a victory? Even a doctor can’t keep up with us 🙂
  
  • 2192 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 1:43 pm
  I bet that Dr. Gregory Poland is kicking himself in the rear for that pap and mammogram comment, but you have to admit that is EXACTLY what happens. Go in for something totally unrelated and get hassled for a pap smear.
  
  I’m surprised there aren’t pap smear kits in ambulances. Give a woman a quick smear while you’re rushing her to the hospital for some other emergency.
  
  • 2193 – Hexanchus (male – US)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 1:55 pm
  Rob,
  
  Those numbers are what Planned Parenthood quoted to the author of the blog. As I said in a subsequent post, I think they are low as well, but perhaps the costs are subsidized so the actual cost to the patient is less. The numbers you referenced seem to be more in line with what I would expect a conventional medical practice would charge.
  
  …………………
  
  Great job on the NPR site ladies! That’s the way to take it to them!
  
  • 2194 – Kate (US)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 2:16 pm
  I’m really surprised that there weren’t any women defending pap smears. All you heard from were those two guys and us and I seriously can’t believe we weren’t censored. I hope NPR takes notice and someone can help get the message out.
  
  I honestly believe some women have been helped by pap smears, but I think the number is way overly exaggerated. Men had problems with prostate exams and the PSA test and now there is open debate and discussion of the topic. My father went to the doctor for his back and they asked if he wanted a prostate exam, he said no and that was the end of the discussion. I went to the same people and it was waaayyy different concerning pap smears.
  
  I just want the same respect as men … is that *really* too much to ask?
- Blogger 6:11 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2195 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 3:00 pm
  Kate – My guess is that the women who would want to defend their “paps” weren’t responding since they have nothing substantial to offer.
  
  How many times has someone come to post here only to say “I was one of the ones saved”. They cannnot intelligently discuss exactly what they had, what stage, how it was treated etc. More than likely they had some sort of biopsy or LEEP and will be eternally grateful.
  
  Like I posted on that NPR site, the support sites are filled with women looking for answers to their “dysplasia cancer”. And yes I know dysplasia is not cancer but that is my point; they do not. I have actually read women posting that they had a colposcopy and it “saved” them from dying of cancer!
  
  Like the statement posted from Pappyland who thinks it is just better to “go and get your annual” – another example of someone simply doing as they are told and not even asking what is being done to them.
  
  I’m also very happy that one of you posted that women in Australia don’t have to have annual pelvics and paps to get birth control. I never knew that pelvics were only pushed in the States. Maybe if more American women learn the ugly truth something will change.
  
  • 2196 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 3:11 pm
  The problem is the expensive machinery is all in place and all the snouts in the trough want to keep testing going at full speed – every cervix is more money. This is a numbers game, paps for profit and any cervix will do, even no cervix will do….(the testing of women with no cervix after a full hysterectomy for benign conditions)
  Because smoke, mirrors, misleading statements were always acceptable with this testing and the only way they stood a chance of getting most women to test…that has carried on and decades later we’re just starting to fight for informed consent.
  Its taken a long time for the message to get out, but censorship was a major issue over those years and still is, but, women are listening now in increasing numbers. Once if I posted facts, I was deleted, cautioned and my post edited or attacked by women who “knew” the facts. Now I find negative comments in lots of places before I get there and that’s great.
  I even saw an article in a country newspaper recently, a scare campaign, and the comments were negative, “Don’t try to scare us, tell us the truth”.
  As I’ve said all along, if an informed woman wants to screen, go right ahead, but with the facts, she’s unlikely to allow inappropriate and excessive screening and that will bring down the colposcopy/biopsy rates.
  When women don’t have the facts and have been misled, they can’t protect themselves from harm and can’t make informed decisions.
  The Dr on the NPR site would know his patients are not giving informed consent, every Dr would be aware – you only have to look at the information released to women and the facts and articles locked away in medical journals. Asking women a few questions would highlight the lack of informed consent.
  When the attitude has always been, “don’t tell women anything negative that might put them off” you can hardly end up with informed women.
  Informed people cut through the smoke and mirrors and threaten doctors and these programs – this is accepted with prostate cancer screening – there is a recognition that men are individuals and entitled to their autonomy, but its never been acceptable for women to do anything other than comply – like running ewes through sheep dip. The level of disrespect is so great and acceptable that even blatant lies are fine if it results in higher screening numbers.
  That is changing…demand respect from your doctor.
  Everyone should make doctors, women’s groups and the government uncomfortable about the lack of respect for informed consent in breast and cervical screening. The current programs are not pro-women, but anti-women.
  
  • 2197 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 4:00 pm
  Another statistic that is always over looked is the number of women who die of cervical cancer who had been getting regular pap smears. The test did nothing for them.
  
  Notice how that is never mentioned?
  
  • 2198 – Heather Kopp
  Oct 08, 2010 at 4:05 pm
  I have been having a fight with military doctors over the last year about having my “annual well woman” exam. My husband is in the service, but for some reason, they think they can tell me what to do. I had all the tests done when I was younger, and less committed, and again when I became pregnant with our daughter. Since then (3 years ago), I have found no reason to go in. But these stupid doctors call EVERY MONTH to “schedule my exam”. I’ve asked them to stop calling, and even had one nurse tell me “my insurance DICTATES I have a yearly exam”, to which I replied “NO ONE can DICTATE what I do with MY body. They may DICTATE that you have to be a b*** and waste my time, but I am a grown woman and can refuse ANY treatment I want, including this”. It is literally driving me insane.
  And to top it off, I went into the dr’s because of a pretty bad cut on my toe, and he starts asking all these “girly” questions. Why haven’t you had your exam? (because I don’t want to). What kind of birth control are you on? (None, we use natural family planning). Well, you HAVE to use some sort of birth control..! (Really?! Why? It’s none of your business if I get pregnant again- you’re not being asked to raise any child I might have). Ugh. I hate doctors so much sometimes.
  
  • 2199 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 5:00 pm
  Yes Heather I’ve read of one 20 year old woman on the Hystersisters site who is in the military who is having a hysterectomy because of what she says is cc. Now at her age I highly doubt that it is and I would also make an assumption that military doctors are probably not the best doctors around.
- Blogger 6:14 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2200 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 08, 2010 at 5:16 pm
  I phoned Planned Parenthood to check the cost of an annual GYN exam and labs. Many women do NOT have insurance–like millions of Americans.
  The cost WITHOUT insurance was between $500-700 USD. Perhaps, the Planned Parenthood I spoke with did not have substantial funding. I have no idea why I was quoted such a HIGH cost.
  
  Now imagine if a woman needs the birth control and she is being demanded to have a pap/pelvic first. How can she afford such an outrageous amount?
  These non-profit organizations are definitely concerned about making money to pump back into their program. The word non-for profit is a misnomer.
  
  • 2201 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 09, 2010 at 4:32 pm
  It really surprises me the nosiness of your doctors. Have I just been lucky, but not one English or Australian Dr has ever quizzed me about number of partners, use of condoms etc
  Perhaps because I’ve never asked a Dr for contraception.
  An American colleague showed me a questionnaire she’s required to complete for her new doctors surgery. I was shocked at the impertinence – I guess because they do these well-woman exams they feel they can get very personal. My colleague has always refused these exams (after we enlightened her 10 years ago) – she puts a line through all of this information and says she’s only prepared to answer questions that are relevant to her visit, no fishing expeditions. One of the questions talks about use of sex toys, do you engage in anal sex? Have you considered an IUD or permanent birth control like Essure? (drumming up business?)
  I suppose these doctors assume they’re being very thorough, but it’s totally unnecessary unless you happen to have a problem that makes those questions relevant.
  I’d be careful disclosing information that is irrelevant or simply none of their business.
  I’ve noticed even my hairdresser and dentist try to extract information that is irrelevant/none of their business – they basically want to know how much money you earn – what are my chances of selling this woman whitening treatments, cosmetic dentistry or expensive shampoo and conditioner or extra services?
  
  • 2202 – Connie (USA)
  Oct 09, 2010 at 8:58 pm
  I had a cone biopsy last month and I’m still sore and bleeding. This stuff is really bad. It makes you feel dirty and worthless.
  I’ve always hated being a woman because of all this stuff. It never even occurred to me I could refuse paps, doctors and everyone else have told me they’re necessary, I must have them and I believed them. Also, my Dr threatened to stop my supply of birth control.
  I also had LEEP in 2007 and then 3 monthly pap tests.
  I was asked to join a cancer support group, but my biopsy was normal, why would I want to join a cancer support group?
  You’re all correct, this is a giant con job, turning every healthy woman into a cancer survivor.
  I’m not having more tests, when my Dr contacted me this week (after I told the nurse I wouldn’t be seeing the Dr again) I got a dramatic response, but I’ve had enough and couldn’t care less about this business. My relationship is over, all of this turned me off sex.
  I want to be left alone to get on with my life which has been a substitute life so far because of this successful sales pitch that turns us all into cancer survivors and strips us of our dignity and confidence.
  I plan to nurture the woman who’d like a chance at a normal life. At the moment a woman means cancer and definitely sex means cancer, that’s not normal.
  I want to trust my body, I no longer trust doctors.
  
  • 2203 – Phoenix (Sydney)
  Oct 09, 2010 at 9:27 pm
  You are totally right, Lynne. We never do hear about women who obediantly jumped through all the hoops that doctors demanded them to, and then they still got CC anyway.
  
  If there’s one thing that any woman reading this blog for the first time should realise, it’s how two-faced doctors can be. They are arrogant and self-righteous enough to parade around women who ‘got’ CC who never had a pap smear, but like Lynne said, what about all of those who did get paps and they didn’t get saved?
  
  I’ve also noticed comments appearing around the net from angry women just beginning to find out that what they’ve gone through and how they’ve been treated over pap smears was really all for nothing.
  
  • 2204 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 10, 2010 at 10:55 am
  Well Connie, welcome and thanks for sharing your situation with us.
  
  I hope that you find some comfort in the other women on here who found this site after the same type of treatment. I just wish there were a way to get this information out to women earlier.
  
  I have tried multiple ways, but so many women are hostile and just completely WILL NOT believe that their doctor would do such a thing to them. 😦
  
  Sadly all of us here realize that while your doctor might be ‘one of the good ones’ – in the U.S., if your doc is a Gyn, I seriously doubt that they are honest about paps.
  
  That doc posting on the NPR article was trying hard to appear like a ‘wonderful doc’, but even when he listed out that he informs women … he stated that after an abnormal, and ‘further testing including biopsy’ – he’d recommend LEEP or conization but tell the woman that ‘it could resolve itself’ … and leave it up to her whether she wants the invasive treatment.
  
  FIRST of all, he SHOULD be telling these woman ‘it could resolve itself’ IMMEDIATELY upon getting an abnormal – and he should be telling these women that 10% of ALL women tested have abnormal results and only .1% of those actually HAVE ANYTHING WRONG.
  
  I am so sorry Connie that all of this cervical cancer hype & unethical doctors have wounded you so.
  
  There need to be support groups for US – support for women who have been lied to and betrayed and physically and mentally damaged by doctors.
  
  I completely understand Connie – that you didn’t know you could refuse. We are NEVER told this, you call to schedule an appt – it can be for ANYTHING … and they have all the equipment ‘out & ready’ – like having a pap is the same as ‘open your mouth and say Ahhhh’
  
  There’s no discussion, there’s no asking … there is just expectation and manipulation.
  
  I guess I am fortunate to have been 1)brought up to question everything and 2)seen women in my life (mom, grandma) be mistreated by doctors for years.
  
  There was nothing I could do then – no one listens when children ask questions like ‘why on earth do doctors need to poke around ‘in THERE’??’ – adults look at you with this look of pity … like ‘enjoy your innocence cause they’ll be doing it to you soon enough’.
  
  Thank heavens for the internet … so many more women have the chance to find the truth – they just need to be brave enough … or unhappy enough to finally ask questions.
  
  • 2205 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 10, 2010 at 11:06 am
  Ruth, that article you posted on how women who don’t test are likely to have been sexually abused … all I can say is HOW DARE THEY?!?!?
  
  What man/asshole even thought up this study?
  
  Of course they forget all about the young girls/women whose first sexual experience is a traumatic invasion by a doctor – and how that leads to promiscuity and other ‘high risk behaviors’.
  
  Of course they never asked the women why they refused the test – and even if they did, they would never record the answer of ‘it’s a useless test’ .. they don’t want that published ANYWHERE lest someone read it and actually question paps.
  
  Nope. All research is directed towards how to MAKE us non-conformists fall in line. They worry that expense is the issue (so they offer free testing) they worry that abuse is an issue (so they offer counseling) they worry that the TRUTH is an issue (so they hide it and LIE)
  
  We need a study of women who refuse to see doctors AT ALL because of their unethical and bullying behavior …. nah, that stuff doesn’t really happen – it’s ‘just me’ right?! (sarcasm)
  
  • 2206 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 10, 2010 at 5:41 pm
  Connie, sorry to hear of your nightmare.
  My guess is you’re under 30 – that sort of thing, LEEP and then a cone a couple of years later is all too familiar.
  I can’t see how doctors get away with this, even though keeping women ignorant and grateful protects them, surely there are ethics committees around that see what’s going on.
  These young women should be told at the outset that screening is a bad idea before 30 and even then, PLEASE, do your reading first!
  By the time these poor women are 30, the damage has been done. You can hear and feel the awful emotional cost paid by healthy women in these posts.
  It breaks my heart…
  Of course, early testing increases the risk right through life – after these false positives and over-treatment, these poor women are usually horribly over-screened (like Connie – 3 monthly pap smears!) and the chance of it happening all over again goes way up.
  What an absolute nightmare. I know a couple of women have committed suicide after getting false positive mammograms, I wonder how many women have done the same after years of these “treatments”. Of course, no one cares or is counting. It’s all “minor”, remember the party line.
  
  • 2207 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 7:08 am
  The cancer support group websites are full of stories just like the one Connie relayed to this site. The only difference is that they are still in the dark and Connie has realized that she has been conned.
  
  Connie I am not surprised that the response was “dramatic” when you told them you would not be returning. They had you on that gynecological merry-go-round and don’t want you to get off of it that easily.
  
  I know several women who stopped cold turkey with the gynecological visits (an aunt was one of them), and guess what? They went on to live happy lives and didn’t drop dead of cancer.
  
  The pap smears every 3 months is something I have read in a support group too. There is one woman at the Daily Strength site who is constantly having her “dysplasia cancer” treated. She is calling her dysplasia cancer and refers to herself as a cancer patient. Where is the informed consent? She has been going through this for a couple of years and no doctor is explaining to her that she doesn’t have cancer?
  
  With the internet and exchange of information, I think there will be many more women questioning this barbaric cycle.
  
  • 2208 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 7:13 am
  FYI Everyone – That NPR site now has an article that came out today questioning mammograms.
  
  • 2209 – Rob
  Oct 11, 2010 at 12:45 pm
  Someone SHOULD be questioning mammograms too. The last one my wife had caused us a ton of grief for NOTHING. It seems women over 40 often have calcifications that make a small spot on mammograms. The radiologists and doctors made a HUGE deal out of nothing. They called our home and told me the wife had cancer and that she needed to get back there RIGHT NOW! She cornered the radiologist and told him she did not have insurance and could not do anything at the time. Oddly enough, that cancer changed to “nothing to worry about”!
  They kept calling here and sending mail everyweek for a while. They could not wait to do a biopsy. Too bad for them we did not fall for it. Its all nuts!
  
  • 2210 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 2:11 pm
  Lynne I noticed that too when I read threads on different forums. On one thread that I read of a woman having a hysterectomy I couldn’t tell if she had cancer or dysplasia because in the same post she’s saying she’s got “cc” and “looming cancer”. Doctors are deliberately giving confusing information.
  My theory is that because problems like fibroids and heavy periods are no longer automatically treated with a hysterectomy, cc or so called cc has become the new disease to treat with hysterectomy. The modus operandi is first give them all those other awful treatments like leeps so then they’re begging for one. And a hysterectomy doesn’t seem so barbaric after all.
  On one anti hysterectomy site I read about a woman with fibroids who said her doctor vaguely threw in the word cancer in with fibroid, trying to give her the impression that there is a link. There is no link at all with the two. So it doesn’t surprise me that dysplasia and cc go hand in hand now.
  
  • 2211 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 2:19 pm
  Mary – You are right about the deliberate confusion. I have also read on these support sites where women are assuming that anything called a tumor is automatically a cancer.
  
  One poster wrote about her fibroid tumor and had cancer in parenthesis next to the word fibroid.
  
  • 2212 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 2:59 pm
  I’ve been posting on NPR (debate over mammograms) under another name. You might want to check it out. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130437187
  
  • 2213 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 3:02 pm
  I found another support website called “Inspire”.
  
  The amount of misinformation being passed around in that site just boggles my mind.
  
  One woman was so grateful that they found her CIN3 and treated it with LEEP since she is only 28 and just had a baby. Of course her “gyne” wants her to come in for pap smears more frequently.
  
  Others are happy for her that they caught her “invasive pre cancer” in time.
  
  What angers me in all of these situations is that there are doctors and nurses involved and no one is setting any of these women straight.
  
  • 2214 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 3:12 pm
  I am wondering if I was censored on NPR since I attack the notion that ‘screening should be optional under 50yr’.
  
  Gee, screening is ALWAYS optional. I don’t see my post yet.
  
  I attack paternalism and ‘orders’ given to women by doctors.
  
  • 2215 – Kate (US)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 3:29 pm
  Cass, I saw a post about the optional for women 50 and over. I don’t know if it was you but it’s up there 🙂
  
  I’m delighted NPR had that article; it’s not perfect but I think it’s a step in the right direction.
  
  • 2216 – Phoenix (Sydney)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 5:07 pm
  They’ve closed the comments on the NPR story. Not sure if that’s normal or they just don’t want any more women coming along with the truth and facts about pap smears!
  
  I too get tired of reading comments from women who’ve had ‘treatment’ for their ‘cancer’. They all carry on about how they’ve been saved, and they could have died, and women who refuse to test are STUPID!
  
  Well hey, we’re not stupid, just informed! We’ve gone through the facts and seen right through the propaganda. We’re definitely not sheep…
  
  • 2217 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 5:15 pm
  I posted and agreed with the “optional” remark on mammograms. I just love the women on there who are giving orders to other women to GET THE MAMMOGRAM.
  
  Sometimes other women are our own worst enemies.
  
  • 2218 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 6:26 pm
  Yeah, I am Marghosa on NPR. Look at KY girl’s response. She is touting being a cancer survivor and was NEVER even diagnosed with cancer! Her statement reads:
  
  “After a lumpectomy, where they discovered not one but 4 tumors “like beads on a string”, and that the surrounding tissues were FULL of precancerous cells, I had chemo, a mastectomy, radiation and reconstruction.”
  
  Her situation was precancerous, like many women thinking they were saved. When are these women going to wake up? I am sure all of this screening was for her own good and she worships doctors now. Gosh, she was just 37.
  
  Perfect example of dishonesty and lack of informed consent. She was most likely yet another uninformed victim of over-treatment. Her life was NOT saved by mammography.
  
  • 2219 – Connie (USA)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 7:20 pm
  This thread and the women who post here are my inspiration.
  Elizabeth, I’m 26.
  I’m reading some of these articles and essays and feel sick.
  Doctors did a number on me. Most other women are still caught up in this testing. It shakes me faith in humanity and definitely womens health.
  Few women would accept we’re all being used for money and that less than 1% of women are helped by testing.(that is really bad when you think of all the women who think they have or had cancer) Almost every woman believes the reverse is true, a cancer of epidemic proportions and without the test and treatments, about 80% of women would be wiped out.
  We all thought an abnormal meant cancer or would likely be cancer in a year or two. Few sites educate women, I did lots of reading after the first procedure and didn’t get any of the information I’ve found in the articles at this site.
  This information is being hidden from women.
  I feel angry and relieved at the same time.
  Some women say that doctors are the experts, who are we to question them? We didn’t go to med school.
  No, we didn’t, but when it comes to cancer screening, those notions risk our health. Maybe these tests are useful from a collective point of view, but I want to make the right decision for my health.
  Some women like this testing or that’s the way it appears, they wear their obedience like a badge of honor or say that their gyn is the only other man that has free and easy access to THAT area.
  Many women will never accept the information in the articles posted here and in a way I can understand that, it would be too painful to think you were used by doctors and they’re all laughing at our pain and embarrassment.
  For me, I prefer to know.
  Still bleeding but knowing this has all ended because I’ve taken control makes me feel a lot better.
  
  • 2220 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 11, 2010 at 8:59 pm
  Gosh Connie .. your only 26.
  
  You are in my prayers. I hope that you are able to read all of our experiences and know that you are not alone.
  
  Being a woman is a wonderful thing … being an F—ing income source for devious doctors & cancer ‘charities’ is what sucks.
  It sucks that THEY have made many of us think that our insides are just crawling with ‘precancerous cells’ just ticking timebombs of cancer gonna kill us all.
  
  The truly sad thing is that many women like yourself have been seriously damaged at such a young age.
  
  I have a friend who always wanted kids and has had multiple lost pregnancies and I am SURE that they are due to damage cause by so many LEEPs and a cone done before she was even 25 😦
  
  She is in complete denial that her wonderful and caring doctor could have been the CAUSE of all of her pain. But her doc (it’s a female doc) is happy making huge amounts of money on this woman. At age 35 she has spent tons of money on the ‘treatments’ and on psych counseling for ‘cancer survivors’ … and more counseling for lost pregnancies … and on and on and on.
  
  I can’t see how she has ANY cervix left, but still she goes for her ‘annual’ because she has been ‘saved’ by paps.
  
  WTF has she been ‘saved’ from? A happy life??
  
  • 2221 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 12, 2010 at 8:14 pm
  That NPR site is now running a story on how many terminally ill patients still receive regular cancer screenings like pap smears and mammograms.
  
  It even mentions that the patients aren’t being consulted if this is necessary.
  
  Anyone else not find this surprising?
  
  • 2222 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 12, 2010 at 11:45 pm
  Thanks for the ‘heads up’ Lynne … I posted on that article just now. That doc trying to say that docs do these tests because the patient requests them … and they don’t have the time or inclination to explain why they aren’t necessary.
  
  Uh huh … has ANYONE EVER had a doctor tell you a test WASN’T necessary?!?
  
  Right, sure … us darn patients just requesting migraine medication and NOT without a pap smear dammit … do you think I’m leaving here WITHOUT getting naked?? (Sarcasm)
  
  Yep … it’s us darn patients. We can’t get enough of these embarrassing and humiliating tests.
  
  • 2223 – Kate (US)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 5:05 am
  NPR also has a story about health insurance giving women contraceptives without a copay. Naturally this is about women having healthy babies and not really about the health of the women … because the only thing that matters is that women are breed sows.
  
  • 2224 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 7:32 am
  Suze – Yes I couldn’t believe that they have stooped so low as to blame the patient for the unwanted tests!
  
  . . . and to suggest that a doctor “doesn’t have the time” to discuss why they aren’t necessary? So informed consent goes out the window?
  
  Thanks for posting that the calls are made to drum up business. How can people be so stupid as to think that their doctor “cares” about them so that is why the get the reminder calls?
  
  My favorite is the woman who puts herself in two categories “remission” and “terminal”.
  
  It is that kind of stupidity that keeps the money flowing in through testing.
- Blogger 6:15 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2225 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 7:47 am
  I posted on the NPR site about my experience concerning my own mother.
  
  Her doctor wanted to hospitalize her at the end of her life, and was FUMING that we decided upon Hospice. My mother was in the last stages of Parkinson’s and Hospice was the most compassionate choice.
  
  Throughout my mom’s illness I fought her doctor regarding colonoscopies, pap smears, mammograms, and whatever other test that doctor could pull out of her hat.
  
  My only regret is that I didn’t contact Hospice sooner than I did. I am grateful that I never caved in to the doc’s demands.
  
  • 2226 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 13, 2010 at 8:18 am
  I wanted to know if anyone wonders why Christina Applegate (actress) had both breasts removed. She did NOT have Cancer; her MOTHER had breast Cancer, so to be “safe”, Christina had her breasts removed. NOW she claims she is a “survivor” of Cancer. She did NOT have Cancer and how could her doctor perform such radical surgery when she merely had a history of Cancer in her family?
  
  As to terminal patients “requesting” Pap smears, that is the most ludicrous bunk I have heard yet. We, as women, fight our entire lives AGAINST these humiliating, invasive tests. The last thing ANY of us would do is REQUEST a Pap Smear, especially if we are dying!
  
  • 2227 – Jeanine (UK)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 8:42 am
  interesting discussion today with a nurse, altho she was nice.
  
  she asked me again about having smears to which i said i have read up on statistics, i know how rare cc is and i know what trauma it can cause a woman mentally when she has abnormal smears, followed by a procedure to remove cells, only to find out the biopsy was negative and there was nothing wrong-
  
  well the nurse said these days it doesnt get to biopsies, not anymore anyway, not unless it’s necesarry to have one.
  she said that the test is so ‘hot’ this day and age that it rarely ever produces false ppsitives and certainly doesnt lead to as many biopsies as say, ten years ago.
  
  i then question why cervical smears were the number 1 screen at the moment, when women my age arent being screened every 3 years for breast cancer, esp given that breast cancer is more common- her reply was something along the lines of, cervical cancer is much more popular and starts in women my age and is more known in women in their 20’s.
  
  i then went on to question the screening programme in other countries and she told me that it’s so ‘hot’, that poland test every year???
  i mentioned the finnish programme and she said that maybe they dont test til 30 because women are less promiscuous over there?
  
  i asked her what my risk was and she said low and then went on to tell me that nuns develop cc.
  
  i also told her that certain screening experts like the ones mentioned on this blog, have questioned the accuracy of this test, she said she knew nothing about that, so i advised her to look online.
  
  then i went on to ask if it is true that drs get paid for every woman who has a smear, she said ‘drs get paid for everything’.
  i told her i dont want the invitations sent to me anymore until i have made my own informed decision and done my own research, she told me i’d have to schedule an appt’m with a dr before they can stop the invites but after a couple years due to the test being so ‘valued’ in this country, i’ll continue to get the invitations again.
  
  she tells me shes been havin smears since 20 and it’d be more traumatic for her, mentally, having had 2 children and never knowing what a smear result will bring.
  
  this again made me feel a little uneasy, why must they bring children into it?
  
  • 2228 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 13, 2010 at 9:28 am
  They bring children into it to ply upon your sensitivities. They will try every trick in the book to get yet another woman to knuckle under to their pressure at having unnecessary, invasive exams. Didja notice you’d have to spend MORE money to book an appointment with a doctor to tell him/her you do not want “invitations” to test any longer? When will this money mill subside? They ply upon women’s insecurities; honestly, women’s intuition is laughed at, but if something doesn’t sound right, you know it ISN’T right. Tell them firmly you will contact THEM if you decide to test; if they persist in contacting you, you consider it harassment and will contact a local lawyer/barrister. If you have Legal Aid in England, you might ask them to write a letter on your behalf; I have PrePaid Legal here in The U.S.A. and it only costs me $26.00 per month and I can contact my attorney every day of the year if I want. It’s money well-spent on stupid issues, such as the harassment you are going through.
  
  •
  • 2229 – Suze
  Oct 13, 2010 at 9:32 am
  Jeanine … they bring children into it because they are TRAINED fear mongers.
  
  Even those who work in the front office who know nothing about the test one way or the other spout frightening stuff about cervical cancer being the ‘number one killer of women’ (has NEVER been true). Ask them a question about it, and they’ll just move on to the next scary idea in their script. They can’t answer any question about it, because they are never told why or any real information – just propaganda to make women shut up and do it.
  
  I am not guessing here, I worked in medical billing & claims for years & trained many front office staff on new systems … and they couldn’t hold up a conversation about ANY medical stuff. Basically even ask them why they weigh you at every visit – IF you get an answer, I bet it is ‘because we have to fill out the form’.
  
  So why are women asked about paps EVERY SINGLE time we go to a doctor … even before the doc gets involved? Because it’s right there on the form …
  
  I decided that I am gonna start taking a black magic marker with me to any doc visit. I will ‘black out’ any questions that aren’t relevant. That way they don’t even know what’s missing. Normally I leave the answer blank – which of course leads to the nurse asking me them like I’m too stupid to fill out a form.
  
  We’ll see what the response is … if I ever go back that is.
- Blogger 6:15 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2230 – Jeanine (UK)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 9:33 am
  do drs get paid in the uk for every appointment made? torrance have u had a smear?
  
  • 2231 – Daisy (England)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 10:33 am
  Torrance- it doesn’t cost the patient any money to see a doctor in the UK. So it won’t cost Jeanine anything to see the doctor, except the time.
  
  Suze- I’m not sure about all practices, but certainly at mine there aren’t really forms to fill out for each visit. I think I had to do a smoking survey one a couple of times, which was a bit silly since I’ve never smoked. I guess because medical insurance and payment doesn’t really happen for the vast majority of GP consultations, the need to fill in forms is much smaller. Actually, now I think about it, the practice now has electronic ‘check-in’ so you don’t even have to talk to the people on the reception desk at all.
  
  I’m not sure that GPs get paid per patient… they do get paid a standard set fee for doing a smear as well as the extra money for hitting a target.
  
  • 2232 – Daisy (England)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 10:53 am
  Jeanine- to go back to your earlier post and comment on some of what the nurse said:
  
  >>she said that the test is so ‘hot’ this day and age that it rarely ever produces false ppsitives and certainly doesnt lead to as many biopsies as say, ten years ago.
  
  Even the NHS information leaflet (which is a bit useless and really more like propaganda, although it is honest that not all abnormal results are cancer) says that for 1 in 20 women the test will show an abnormality. Even though the actual chance of the test finding cervical cancer is very very small (around 1% lifetime risk, but a much smaller annual risk- let’s say 0.1%, but it’s actually less than that). So you have a 5% chance of a false positive, and a 0.1% chance of actually having cancer. So that’s 50 times more likely to have a false positive than to have cancer.
  
  >> i then question why cervical smears were the number 1 screen at the moment, when women my age arent being screened every 3 years for breast cancer, esp given that breast cancer is more common- her reply was something along the lines of, cervical cancer is much more popular and starts in women my age and is more known in women in their 20’s.
  
  Well, there isn’t really a good way of screening for breast cancer in young women (or even particularly good method for older women- and breast cancer is relatively rare in young women). I think breast cancer is actually more common than cervical cancer in young women, though I don’t have figures to hand. Cervical cancer is still rarer in younger women than in older women.
  
  >>i asked her what my risk was and she said low and then went on to tell me that nuns develop cc.
  
  Well, not all nuns have been celibate all their lives. And in any case, it is possible for anyone with a cervix to get cervical cancer, it’s just very rare. But of course it happens. It was a daft example to give, because I don’t think anyone is saying that women who’ve never been sexually active never get cervical cancer. At least she was honest enough to say that your risk was low.
  
  It sounds like she really isn’t that informed, and I wouldn’t take anything she says about pap tests as being true until you’ve researched it yourself. It really isn’t fair to bring children into it, though, because that’s bordering on emotional blackmail.
  
  • 2233 – Jeanine (UK)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 10:54 am
  i havent had to fill in any forms either, apart from when i registered at the drs, i dont even think it asked me about my recent smear (one ive not had may i add) im a bit miffed i have to book an appointment to see the dr in order to get the invites stopped. bit odd.
  
  • 2234 – Kate (US)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 11:01 am
  Sounds like one last appointment to get you to have one … sounds *very* suspicious.
- Blogger 6:15 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2235 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 13, 2010 at 11:27 am
  No, Jeanine; I am 43 years old and have REFUSED every single gynecological thing they have tried to force me to submit to since I was 11. Surprise! I’m still here! I haven’t died from all their gruesome scare tactics. I have also refused to set foot in any doctor’s office for any reason since I was 20 in 1987. I do not fall for their crap and I was lied to, deceived and offended by every single doctor. It’s not bad enough they weighed me EVERY time I went; they also MEASURED Me and when I’d ask WHY, when I have been the same height since 1978, they wouldn’t even respond. I am sick of the entire genre and all the constant pressure, scare tactics and not even legitimate, current statistics. I also had a former insurance company (when I had medical insurance through my former job) sternly tell me I HAD to have a yearly Pap smear per their coverage I hadn’t even WANTED. Cancer screening is OPTIONAL, yet they constantly try to make women fearful for our/their/your lives. I tell them I don’t care if I DO die and they label me as a mental case, but obviously, if I haven’t seen a doctor in 23 years and certainly NEVER have submitted myself for anything gynecological and I am still alive * I have literally had one itchy knee (discussed previously here) and FIVE COLDS in 23 years and haven’t died, so who is lying here? THE DOCTORS.
  
  You don’t have to pay to see a doctor in The U.K.? Wow, here, they can’t WAIT to bill you. I HATE doctors.
  
  • 2236 – Katrina (UK)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 4:00 pm
  Jeanine,
  
  The Practice Nurse takes smears and sends them off to the lab. And that is all. And frankly, some of the statements she’s made are complete rubbish. But then again, if she’s been faithfully having smears since 20 (too young by today’s standards) she obviously doesn’t have her facts right.
  As for constantly mentioning your children, it’s called emotional blackmail. The GP tried it on me once – when I informed him I didn’t have children, he then mentioned my mother and my boyfriend.
  
  The only major ‘improvement’ they’ve made to the test in the last 30 years is the introduction of LBC. It was supposed to make it easier for the lab people to ‘read’ the sample, but all it’s done is cut down on the number of inadequate samples which happened with the ‘traditional’ smear test. Is this what she was referring to when she said the test was ‘hot’ these days?
  The smear is no more reliable or accurate than it was ten years ago – it still produces huge numbers of false positives, and if there are fewer biopsies and treatments being carried out it either means a) more smears are being labelled as abnormal than ever before – abnormalities which later clear on their own, or b) doctors are carrying out more basic treatments for mild abnormalities rather than go to the expense of monitoring the condition.
  
  I don’t think GP’s get paid per test, but one thing’s for sure – they still get a handsome bonus for hitting targets, just as they did 20 years ago. The screening authority still requires around 80% of eligible women to test in order to make the program work. Not a definiton of a ‘hot’ test in my book.
  
  I doubt very much that your nurses believe that you’re at risk at your age, but obviously it’ll be easier to fill you with fear and break down your resistance while you’re young than when you’re older and cynical (like us!).
  
  In order to remove you from the mailing list (for five years) your GP has to submit a form to the Health Authority with your written consent. Essentially, it’s a disclaimer – God forbid, if the worst happens to you, that piece of paper will protect your doctor from you if you try to sue him for negligence.
  Of course, there’s no form for the doctor to sign saying that he’ll take full responsibility for any psychological or physical trauma caused by a false positive.
  
  • 2237 – Jeanine (UK)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 5:23 pm
  has anyone here ever been removed from the smear invites??? katrina you seem to know quite a bit about it and the duration a person stays off the list for when submitting a request- are u still getting invitations??
  
  not sure if its a wise thing for me to do as ive heard that should a person change their mind about the smear, they’ll be denied based on the fact that they’ve requested not to have anymore letters sent to them regarding the test
  
  • 2238 – Janelle (friend of Beth from UK)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 6:12 pm
  A letter from a solicitor works pretty well. I took myself off the register 6 years ago and last year the letters started again and a phone call. I was told there was no way they could permanently remove me from the register…surprise, surprise, they found a way after speaking to my solicitor.
  The “family” angle is emotional blackmail and used in all countries where doctors are rewarded for numbers screened, this disrespectful approach is even encouraged by govts and their agencies.
  It wouldn’t be used against men.
  I simply said my family would be happy that I’ve made an informed decision, rather than agree to testing because of threats, lies or intimidation. That does the trick – always mention the target payments, it gives you the upper hand.
  Most nurses have a poor knowledge of the test, they don’t go beyond the light weight brochures and are in the business of selling smears.
  65% of English women get referred, that’s a fact. Closely guarded, but still a fact.
  
  • 2239 – Janelle (friend of Beth from UK)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 6:16 pm
  Most surgeries depend on the income derived from testing and the target payments.
  If they’re behind in their numbers, they increase the pressure and even test inappropriately. They chase first timers when they turn 25 so testing becomes a “habit” – less work for them and guaranteed income.
  Once you know the facts (thanks to Beth and another friend) you can forget about testing, fear, pain, discomfort, embarrassment and so on. The light weight scary stuff and emotional blackmail rolls off my back, no match for facts and common sense.
- Blogger 6:16 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2240 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 13, 2010 at 10:17 pm
  “not sure if its a wise thing for me to do as ive heard that should a person change their mind about the smear, they’ll be denied based on the fact that they’ve requested not to have anymore letters sent to them regarding the test”
  Jeanine, that sounds like some myth to scare women from doing that. It would be HIGHLY unethical to be denied a smear if you asked for one. They just wouldn’t deny, because they’d be afraid of litigation in case you did have cc.
  
  • 2241 – Katrina (UK)
  Oct 14, 2010 at 12:05 am
  Jeanine,
  I haven’t got myself removed from the register as yet – the heavy pressure stopped quite a few years ago when then realised their Jedi mind tricks wouldn’t work on me. XD
  I’ve been tempted to sign that disclaimer every time I’ve gone to see a GP for a chest infection and they’ve been more interested in getting me to have a smear than dealing with my symptoms, but I can shut them up pretty quickly now. Yep, mentioning that target payment is VERY effective.
  
  As for the six-monthly invitations… straight into the recycling bin. Yes, I can smell that green ‘information’ leaflet without opening the envelope!
  Anyway… I suggest you take a peek at this. http://www.cancerscreening.nhs.uk/publications/cs4.html
  
  Scroll down to the section 3.4 – informed dissent and you’ll see that you shouldn’t get any more invitations and you can rejoin the program at any time. So it’s as Mary says – they’re not going to refuse you a test if you change your mind.
  
  Although it doesn’t actually state how long the withdrawal lasts, it’s supposed to be permanent if you so wish, but I’ve heard of a few women who’ve gone through the process only to start getting invites again 5 years later.
  
  • 2242 – Phoenix (Sydney)
  Oct 14, 2010 at 2:41 am
  I’m thinking of going back onto the mini-pill because my boyfriend and I dislike condoms so much. I’m not looking forward to going to my GP to ask for them.
  
  I used to use the pill before my endomentrial ablation to try and lighten my impossibly heavy periods, but that was two years ago now. I was never hounded about a pap smear because the doctor knew they were for lightening my periods, but this time (for the first time ever!) it will be for contraception. They may try and pressure me into a pap smear, which I will – of course – absolutely refuse! They won’t know what hit them.
  
  I don’t want to go to the doctor at all for this. I’m still thinking about it.
  
  • 2243 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 14, 2010 at 5:43 am
  Phoenix, just buy your birth control pills online like we are doing! Go to 1-drugstore.com and hopefully, you can find that place in Thailand where I buy mine. If you cannot find it, I’ll post the actual link here again; it’s some pages back.
  
  • 2244 – Rob- US
  Oct 14, 2010 at 8:29 am
  I use “medstore dot biz”. It takes only a week to arrive. They have Birth Control pills.
- Blogger 6:18 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2245 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 14, 2010 at 9:31 am
  I’ll try that link, too, Rob. Thanks. Yes, the ones I get in Thailand take maybe two weeks to arrive and they’re worth the wait. 🙂 Here, in The U.S.A., the government only allows three months of a prescription (even non-narcotics) to be purchased at once; in Thailand, if I have the money, I can buy 100 p acks at once with NO limit. I am so sick of these bizarre restrictions.
  
  • 2246 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 14, 2010 at 3:35 pm
  Thanks for the link Rob. I’ll pass it along to my 18 year cousin, who needs birth control and save her from the brainwashing and indoctrination of women’s healthcare.
  
  • 2247 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 14, 2010 at 4:55 pm
  Torrance, do you ever have a problem with customs? We have the same restrictions here so I have never ordered more than three months at a time. Actually one of my parcels was opened by customs but nothing was removed. I had bought some antibiotics from Thailand.
  
  • 2248 – Elizabeth (Aust)
  Oct 14, 2010 at 6:08 pm
  I saw in the newspaper this morning that a better non-invasive test has been invented for prostate cancer, a urine test.
  Of course, I’m happy for men, but how much longer are women to be stuck with an invasive, unreliable test? I’m not interested for myself, but there are high risk women or risk averse women who would like a non-invasive and reliable alternative.
  Why are they still waiting after decades?
  
  Because they all know, but don’t admit it, that cervical cancer is rare, they’re not really concerned about finding an alternative.
  Also, I read all the time that women find the test acceptable as 80% of women screen at least once every 5 years. Of course, no mention of informed consent.
  Most women who screen have no idea of the facts or risks and are not giving informed consent.
  We’ve also seen the profession, Papscreen, the cancer council and the health department don’t care about informed consent for women or about over-treatment and the many poor outcomes. When you’ve been denying harm to women for decades, why would you worry about it now? Disrespect, dishonesty, secret payments to doctors and paternalism are all well established components of women’s cancer screening.
  
  The prostate screening research team were concerned that men were foregoing the test due to its unreliability (quite rightly) and an alternative needed to be found.
  Once again, exactly the same criticisms could be made of the pap smear, but not a word is said….sometimes when lies become well established, they become the new facts. I suspect that’s the case with cervical screening.
  There are too many people making money from our bodies – all the testing, the target payments and the over-treatment (which leaves some women with damage…even more money for doctors)
  I fear these vested interests will block any improvements with this testing.
  There are advances in medicine all the time, yet there’s been no “acceptable” alternative to the pap smear since it’s introduction decades ago. I just don’t believe that to be the case.
  No one involved with this testing wants women to have access to a non-invasive and reliable test.
  
  • 2249 – OverItAll
  Oct 14, 2010 at 8:52 pm
  So glad I found this site!!
  
  I went to my first gyno pelvic exam at 18 due to severe pain during periods. I was stuck in bed the week before, the week of and the week after my period because the cramps were so bad.
  
  At 19, within TWO MONTHS, I had done FIVE transvaginal AND FIVE abdominal ultrasounds after being told it would find cysts or help in diagnosis. When these came up empty, my 12th or 13th GYN told me I had to do a pelvic CT scan, which strangely went up to my chest. (*Sarcasm* I thought my pelvis was way lower?)
  The CT scan showed that, despite many, many tests throughout my life (many xrays, full-body MRIs and CT scans, etc), I just then found out I was born with ONE KIDNEY.
  
  My GYN said that my left ovary was most likely dead due to my left kidney never forming. Now, at 21, I’m told that if I don’t have a pap, I can’t get a refill on the one birth control pill that has relieved ALL of my period pain, and just an FYI, I’ve tried 6 bc pills.
  
  God bless America, the only country where rats are treated better than women.
- Blogger 6:22 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2250 – OverItAll
  Oct 14, 2010 at 8:56 pm
  Oh and I forgot to mention, the only doctor I have seen in the last 5 months is my kidney specialist… only a urine and blood samples needed there. No problem with my nephrologist. I am also refusing to see my pcp or my gyno anymore. Anyone know where I can get Seasonique WITHOUT a prescription?
  
  • 2251 – Beth (UK)
  Oct 14, 2010 at 9:32 pm
  You can; scroll back, you’ll find the link or one of the American women might post it again for you.
  Good for you…taking control of your healthcare.
  This is about 6 years old but it talks about women opting out of the program. They’re very concerned about women making an informed decision not to screen, but don’t have a jot of concern about all the women testing without giving informed consent. http://www.cancerscreening.nhs.uk/cervical/publications/nhscsp-gpg1.pdf
  Such hypocrites!
  Also, very specific categories, no real respect for a woman’s right to choose. Why do we need a category? Surely NO is sufficient answer for something optional.
  Arrogant and ignorant as well….
  Isn’t it also interesting when they talk about every woman’s right to have testing? What a joke! Coercion, harassment, intimidation and misleading women is the way this testing operates….do they think we’re complete idiots?
  
  • 2252 – Lisa Lisa
  Oct 15, 2010 at 6:05 am
  A mammogram has 1,000 times more radiation than a chest x-ray. I just got one done and for days since my face is exhausted and drawn and I feel yucky. I want to tell them no more and they called me to say my breast tissue is too dense and I need another in 6 months. Well too bad. Lisa
  
  • 2253 – Rob- North Carolina
  Oct 15, 2010 at 9:01 am
  I think it was Lenin(Russia) who said “If a lie is told often enough it becomes the truth”. That certainly applies to what doctors tell women now.
  
  • 2254 – Rob- North Carolina
  Oct 15, 2010 at 9:04 am
  
  “Anyone know where I can get Seasonique WITHOUT a prescription?”
  
  You can most likely find it here- medstore dot biz. Its the place I generally use and they have birth control pills.
- Blogger 6:22 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2255 – Rob- North Carolina
  Oct 15, 2010 at 9:16 am
  Overitall, I appologise, my two sources do not carry your brand of pill. I also use 4rx dot com. It usually comes from Malasia.
  
  • 2256 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 15, 2010 at 9:24 am
  No. 🙂 I have never had Customs open a package and I’ve ordered antibiotics, too. They label the little sticker of what is inside. I always receive a flat, square box tied with bakery string.
  
  • 2257 – Scott (UK)
  Oct 15, 2010 at 9:27 am
  Lisa, aside from the fact you don’t want another one, what’s the point of having a repeat? If your breast tissue is too dense to get a good reading, it’s hardly likely to change in 6 months, is it?
  Gah! Either these experts are incredibly dumb, or they think we all are.
  
  Elizabeth, I saw an article on the new urine test for Prostate cancer in the Daily Mail – nearly choked when I read the phrase, ‘The breakthrough raises the prospect of millions being screened for the disease in the same way as women are for breast cancer.’
  
  Um, how is having a simple urine test the same as having your breasts crushed flat between two metal plates and filled with radiation, may I ask?
  I did leave a comment, whether they allow it past the censors or not is another matter.
  
  • 2258 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 15, 2010 at 9:28 am
  And Over It ALl, you might type in Seasonique without prescription on Google and a whole host of overseas pharmacies will pop up. The one I use in Thailand does not carry your brand. Why can’t your kidney specialist prescribe it? He/She is a licensed physician. If you have good rapport with him/her, explain you cannot and will not go through the GYN hoops and massive, painful testing any longer. Those idiots misdiagnosed you all along and your body, mind and spirit are tired of all the horrible hullaballoo. Please keep us posted.
  
  • 2259 – Torrance * Connecticut
  Oct 15, 2010 at 9:32 am
  Oh, one more thing Over It All: I had the same horrendous period pain/s forever and bled almost nonstop from age 11 until I started buying my own birth control pills online at age 33+. I have taken them NONSTOP since September of 2000 and have NEVER had a period again and I have never felt better. I think the Seasonique you take straight through, for maybe four months at a pop? Why not STOP your periods altogether like most female gynos do yet NEVER TELL US THIS IS OUR OPTION? I am furious women of all ages are forced to endure that monthly nonsense as “part of being a woman”. The teenage years are challenging enough yet NOBODY tells young girls they can stop their cycles altogether. No, God forbid they take birth control pills; parents freak out and claim their daughters will become promiscuous. I hate being touched after a lifetime of battering at the hands of my parents, so being promiscuous is the last thing on my mind. I have been almost permanently celibate my entire life.
- Blogger 6:22 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2260 – Jo (USA)
  Oct 15, 2010 at 11:46 am
  This year I moved from the UK to the US. My birth control pills will run out at the end of the year. I am just 21 and both my husband and I were virgins before marriage. So a pelvic exam or pap smear seems pure invasion. I am absolutely terrified about going to the doctor! I am not a forceful person and would prefer not to have to argue with my doctor. America is supposed to be the country of choice, yada yada. Wish there was an easy way to find out which doctors let the patient choose and which would just be a pure waste of money to visit!
  
  • 2261 – mary (Australia)
  Oct 15, 2010 at 1:53 pm
  LisaLisa they should be offering you an ultrasound not another mammogram.
  Overitall you can try privatemeds dot co dot uk. They will get in any contraceptive pill you want. They do require a consultation first, but all it is is answering some questions online.
  
  • 2262 – MarÃ¬a
  Oct 15, 2010 at 2:00 pm
  I think what happens (perhaps a bit off topic, as usual) that one of the reasons male physicians, technicians and nurses (yes, there are more and more of them)are so predatory is that they increasingly resent the new freedom and power women (especially young, beautiful ones), now have. Becoming a technician in women’s health is one of the few socially acceptable ways in which a man can control a woman’s health and sexuality, and if you are a real pervert, one of the few ways in which you can get to see women naked at all. It is one of the thew occupations, in an increasingly feminist world, in he can actually treat women as objects without becoming emotionally atached to them, because medicine is a mae invention in the first place. Whether this is done “for our own good or not, I really do not care.
  a male health worker now either works for a woman, knows one that has worked up her way up in the food chain to a superior position than he has, or at the very least has to treat a lot of female colleagues with respect, something unthinkable sixty years ago. Believe me, they resent us an awful lot. He really cannot take his frustration out on his fellow medical colleagues or his nurses, who can sue him for harassment at work, but also have insider knowdlege, know how the industry works and probably his personal flaws too well.
  In contrast, the female patient is ignorant, naked, vulnerable, has no know-how or insider knowdlege, and is really the lowest you can go in the food chain. Besides, as they are more numerous than fellow healthcare workers and we are closer at hand, guess who they pick on????
  I’m really excited, there is some research that is beginning to prove what some of us knew is obvious but unsaid, it is really us (especially women) who bear the brunt of overworked or frustrated practicioners.
  My particular problem is that I always have been a part of the Latimo community, where men think that because of being males they are God’s gift to women. They’re very paternalistic, and if you don’t do as you’re told, they even throw a temper tantrum. Abd heaven helps ya if you fall out with them, because they call the shots, and their female staff is actually very subservient, but if they’ve had a bad day, they give you hell, too, only they smile and are good at hiding it. Besides, they can be pretty ignorant about healthcare issues, too.
  Any idea about how how to handle this not so progressive group?
  
  • 2263 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 15, 2010 at 4:01 pm
  Mary,
  
  I just wanted to say that since millions of Americans do NOT have health insurance and many more cannot afford their medications, lots of Americans order from online overseas pharmacies, having no problems with Customs.
  
  Since so many overseas medication packages are coming into the US, I’ve read that Customs could not possibly open every package and keep track. Customs only looks for very large amounts of medications that would appear a person is selling. But, for small individual packages and medications for personal use, Customs could not be bothered.
  
  My friends, family or myself have never had a problem.
  
  • 2264 – Annette (UK)
  Oct 15, 2010 at 6:37 pm
  Jo,
  Either use condoms or get a few repeats from your UK Dr and get them filled as you need them. I got my mother to take the repeats into the pharmacy and then post them to me in New York.
  Don’t go to an American Dr.
  They ask you to strip naked and lie under a tissue like paper which gives you no security or privacy at all. Then you’re asked all sorts of personal sexually related questions and then you get a breast exam and my friend was asked to sit up whereupon the paper fell to the ground and she was completely naked. She started to cry she was that exposed and humiliated.
  The stirrup things are the stuff of your worst nightmare. The probing includes a visual inspection including the clitoris and then a pap test and STI testing (just done to you) and then a bimanual exam with fingers inserted into you and then one in the rectum and one inside the, you know where…don’t want to get caught by censor software.
  All of that to get the Pill!!!!!
  I kid you not, it happened to my friend who still sees a therapist once a month here in London, she has PTSD and reacted to the “exam” as if it were a sexual assault. (which it was)
  When a woman goes in asking for the Pill, you get a blood pressure check and that’s it, you might get pestered about a pap test if you’re 25, but you can refuse and still get the Pill.
  In the States doctors basically assault women with permission from the Police and authorities – no one protects women there and a Dr can do anything he likes.
  It’s terrifying, my friend naturally did not expect that in the States.
  DON’T GO TO AMERICAN DOCTORS – get the Pill at home or use condoms.
  If your partner won’t use condoms and expects you to be assualted to get the Pill, then he doesn’t love you and get rid of him.
  American doctors are allowed to sexually assault women. Yes, they are harsh words, but what else is it? None of those exams are needed for anything and pap tests are a separate thing and voluntary (even if they give you a hard time) but forcing women to be assualted to get the Pill is beyond words.
  How is this allowed in an otherwise great country where civil rights are important?
  The way it’s done as well, you’re naked, using stirrups, over-the-top useless and very invasive exams, things just done like STI testing.
  I would never go near an American Dr, a stray dog would be treated with more respect.
- Blogger 6:23 am on August 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply
  
  • 2265 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 16, 2010 at 3:39 am
  Annette – I really wish more women from the UK would post on American websites that pelvic and breast exams are not routinely done in the United Kingdom. We are led to believe in the States that it is done to women EVERYWHERE in the world!
  
  And it gets worse. American women can go to the doctor for something completely unrelated and get pestered for a pelvic, pap, and a breast exam. You wouldn’t believe the confrontation I had this past summer just to get my cholesteral checked and meds for insomnia!
  
  I wish more American women would wise up and realize that we are, as you rightfully put it, sexually assaulted on a regular basis (if you let them).
  
  Yes we can refuse as I have done many times in the past, but believe me it is a struggle.
  
  • 2266 – Cass (USA)
  Oct 16, 2010 at 6:17 am
  The medical consult in the US is really like date rape, in that you might actually trust and/or like the doctor in the beginning, and then things drastically change behind closed exam room doors.
  
  The doctor becomes aggressive, asserting his/her way until you break down, give in or become very stifled and overwhelmed by the whole situation. Of course, it feels WRONG all along, but the female patient gets overpowered and the doctor takes advantage. The Constitution forbades this, but doctors ignore and break the law all the time. Shame on American doctors!
  
  • 2267 – Rob- US
  Oct 16, 2010 at 8:40 am
  I have mentioned it before, but why not call your congressman or senator and tell them about it? Just maybe, if big pharma hasn’t given them campaign money, you might find one who would be willing to introduce a bill to stop the abuse? There are lots of female representatives now who may be willing to change things.
  
  • 2268 – Suze (USA)
  Oct 16, 2010 at 9:04 am
  Sorry to tell ya Rob .. but females in Congress are even more uselss to us than female doctors. Everyone in power will ‘ask the experts’. Who are they? Well for this topic, they are Gynecologists!?
  
  Yep … they would ask the criminals IF their actions are wrong. How stupid is that?
  
  Our only hope is the financial angle … with so many more people ‘covered’ these useless preventive things will get way too costly. BUT we’ve got these idiotic women’s groups screaming and crying about how any lessening of these exams & tests is a ‘crime against women’
  
  Yep… thanks women’s lib … I get to keep my right to a sexual assault with every doctor visit.
  
  Uninformed women are our biggest problem. I include those who are WRONGLY informed as uninformed.
  
  • 2269 – Lynne (US)
  Oct 16, 2010 at 11:19 am
  Suze – In my opinion the reason that we are hearing more about spacing out pap smears and mammograms is that the “gyn community” KNOWS that this “yearly” business gravy train cannot go on it there are changes to the US healthcare system. All these exams were never necessary, and they have to figure out a way to “cut back” without looking like liars.
  
  FYI – The “Dr. Oz” show on Monday October 18 is titled something like “Gynecologists Secrets”. It seems he has at least 3 shows a month devoted to “gyn” issues. Of course the bottom line is always to “keep up with those appointments”.
  
  Cass – Yes what doctors do to women is bully them into submission. The problem is that it is difficult to prove once you “comply”. I think the only alternative is to bring someone with you and demand they stay during a consult as your witness.
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Tags: Cervical cancer ( 2 ), comments on unnecessary pap smears, Pap test ( 3 ), unnecessary pap smears ( 3 ), Women's health