10,000 Lost Comments on Unnecessary Pap Smears Find a New Home
More than 10,000 comments on Bookofjoe’s “Unnecessary Pap Smears” article were displaced following changes to Blogcritics. The Blogcritic’s site (http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/) had been home to a group of informed women who contributed information and shared personal experiences about pap smears, cervical cancer, and other women’s health issues. Some of the women had been contributors on Blogcritics for years, and for some as many as eight years. The site provided a safe haven for women seeking truthful information and shelter from the misinformation and misconsent that can go hand in hand with women’s health care experiences.
Through the years more than 10,000 comments had accumulated. The comments disappeared from the site during the transfer to a new format more than a month ago, and have not yet reappeared. However, they had been relocated to a different site by someone (unknown, and who we will be forever thankful to) where they were still accessible for those dedicated to finding them. The temporary site where the comments were being kept has since disappeared.
Fortunately, the original comments had been copied into three word documents by Chas before they were lost for good. The comments have been reposted on this site where hopefully they will remain safe for years to come. The reposting is done under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial license endorsed by the original Blogcritics site (http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/), which allows users to copy the works on the site for non-commercial use.
Unnecessary Pap Smears 
Blogger 7:36 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9765 – Sue
Mar 14, 2013 at 3:06 pm
Elizabeth have a great trip! I looked it up too and had no idea. This part from one of the sessions looks so promising (as do many others!):
“We will see an expansion in data availability with research being made available in open access databases and repositories and the growth of secondary research based on these data. We might even see the end of data being hidden by trial sponsors so that we can all achieve a more realistic understanding of the effects of healthcare interventions.”
Diane it sounds as if you have found the doctor we all dream about. She even possessed knowledge about the different types of birth control pills, and thought to ask about symptoms. Instead of just trying to get you to strip and spread em.
• 9766 – Graeme NZ
Mar 15, 2013 at 4:46 am
Hi guys . Things not so good here. I have a bad case of Bells Palsy so am keping a low profile. I hav e told wife she can put a paper bag over my head if it will make her feel better. On a good note i should have my new hip in 2 months. On another matter we got a note from the college asking if my 13 yr old son can have a chat and check up with the nurse there. Get this… our son has to give his consent even if we do. But we can decline the checkup for him if we wish. The note says the chat etc will take up an hour. that seems a long time. My wife is thinking to decline for him and I tend to agree. I dont want him put in a position where he will be uncomfortable. As a matter of interest when I was his age we were given hearing and eye tests. At a different time I had to cough while a thumb was pressed against the future family jewels but all in the same year. Evidently it is to check if they have dropped and for hernias. It was done by a male doctor and very brief. Next time I had that was for the military.
• 9767 – Torrance * Connecticut
Mar 15, 2013 at 5:23 am
Graeme, hope your health improves. You’re a nice man who obviously cares about your family. I would tell the school “No” and I hope they don’t force your son, anyway.
• 9768 – Graeme NZ
Mar 15, 2013 at 5:41 am
Thanks Torrance yes it is a grim time for me but the palsy should clear up in a couple of weeks. It is hard to deal with and I am on a lot of tablets. My wife is of course also worried about our daughter who will attend college in 2 years time. She thinks the girls checks may be more involved. We have been told we can call to discuss so maybe I should do that. But our son is healthy so I think it is better if we decline him for this. I would like only the eye and hearing tests done though as they were in the past.
• 9769 – Torrance * Connecticut, U.S.A.
Mar 16, 2013 at 7:01 am
Graeme, the perverted college campus’ doctor demanded I go to his office and I could not imagine why, for I KNOW my equally-perverted GP had sent along a copy of my medical records. He demanded I have a gynecological exam immediately and I refused. I was not only horrified, he threatened to have me expelled if I didn’t comply. I shrugged and said he could go ahead and have me expelled, then, because my mother had forced me to go, yet NOBODY could force me to have a gynecological exam. Naturally, nothing came of his threats, but he was practically drooling (all dressed up, I look like an older Kim Kardashian). Disgusting. I hope your daughter won’t be forced into such awful things. Here in The United States, ALL teenaged girls are constantly told they must comply with those horrid exams, and none of us realize we can say “No”. I said “No”, but my mother always wanted me to have those exams, making me even more leery and uneasy as to how and why they could possibly be needed, let alone enforced on young girls who aren’t even remotely sexually active. Again, I hope you feel better soon.
Blogger 7:37 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9770 – Kleigh (US)
Mar 16, 2013 at 9:28 am
Torrance, Do you know if that doctor called all the girls at ur collage to his office for gyn exams. it sounds like he had a list of all the femaile students to suminz to his office for screening. and did they screen the males for stds too? L
• 9771 – Kleigh (US)
Mar 16, 2013 at 9:35 am
also its asumed all woman are sexually active and in need of birth control.
• 9772 – Chrissy (UK)
Mar 16, 2013 at 12:44 pm
In the newspapers today in the UK we have a GP who is being prosecuted for filming intimate exams on hundreds of his female patients. The camera was hidden in his watch.
To all those who say that the majority of male doctors do not take sexual advantage of their female patients, I would like to ask them how are we supposed to tell who is a pervert and who isn’t before we entrust our bodies to their touch and gaze.
• 9773 – Graeme NZ
Mar 16, 2013 at 4:45 pm
Thanks for your kind words Torrance. No real improvement for me so far. An ongoing annoyance. Anyway we will never allow our daughter to be abused in any way or our son. Wife and I are as one on this issue.
Chrissy you are dead right. How can you tell if your male GP is a pervert and especially if you have just met him for the first time? Why should you be expected to trust him?
• 9774 – Mary (aus)
Mar 16, 2013 at 6:58 pm
Get well Graeme.
Chrissy what I don’t understand is people, usually women, who make blanket statements like “there’s nothing sexual about a pelvic or breast exam”. Obviously after reading about that UK doctor and that Dr Nikita Levy and many others, that it is for some. Just for how many we don’t know. No one can make catagorical statements about anything. Logically it’s impossible.If one doctor has been found guilty of getting sexual gratification from examining patients, then it is sexual (for some). Period.
Blogger 7:37 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9775 – Ann UK
Mar 16, 2013 at 7:09 pm
dear contributors,
Thank you for the amazing amount of information and wisdom preserved on this site. Please help me spread the word, and if some of you have a facebook or twitter, please share this image http://www.freeimagehosting.net/8cl9f
(giving the NHS a taste of their own medicine)
• 9776 – Ann UK
Mar 16, 2013 at 7:39 pm
I found this whilst looking for the poster found the design of the whole social outreach project. http://www.cervicalscreeningproject.com/whatdidwedo/developandtest/phase2/servicepush2.php
At the methodology part they describe the focus groups:
“Each group consisted of core ACORN group N (Struggling Families) with some ACORN group M & O ACORN Group M (Blue Collar Roots)/O (Burdened Singles)”
“None of the participants were educated past 18”
• 9777 – Sue
Mar 16, 2013 at 10:51 pm
Ann, your comment on my site was caught in the spam trap. I clicked on the link for the image and it didn’t load properly. I wrongly assumed your comment was spam/an add to PROMOTE cervical cancer screening, and so deleted it, but I was able to access the image here. My apologies, and I don’t know if you would want to go to the trouble of submitting a comment again, but if so I would be more careful and certainly not delete it! The image is very effective and clever how it turns it back on them.
Chrissy, I was happy to see your post. The story was very disturbing . . . more and more doctors are getting caught doing something creepy. I love how the word continues to spread.
Elizabeth if you are reading I hope your trip went well and that you arrived safe and sound.
• 9778 – Ann UK
Mar 17, 2013 at 4:40 am
Thank you Sue, posted again. http://www.freeimagehosting.net/8cl9f If anyone feels like spending their sunday afternoon making spoof NHS posters, here is a blank template.
Font used is pragmatica condensed light.http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ You can try for better results. And if you need some inspiration. http://www.cervicalscreeningproject.com/whatdidwedo/developandtest/phase2/servicepush2.php
• 9779 – Christopher Rose
Mar 17, 2013 at 6:39 am
Ann, the way you are posting links is some old school forum kind of way that doesn’t work on a standard website.
I’ve activated the links you posted but please follow this simple explanation of how to format a link in future. http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/linking/_A_HREF.html
Thank you.
Christopher Rose
Blogcritics Comments Editor
Blogger 7:40 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9780 – Chrissy (UK)
Mar 17, 2013 at 11:27 am
Thanks Sue, much appreciated.
• 9781 – Sue
Mar 17, 2013 at 4:02 pm
My pleasure Chrissy 🙂
Ann, thank you for taking the time to repost. I was not able to access the blank template from the link you provided, but was able to access the prepared spoof image. It is truly a work of art, thank you for putting it together.
• 9782 – Diane (US)
Mar 17, 2013 at 7:37 pm
Get well soon Graeme!!
I wish I could clone my doctor and send her on a world tour for all of you. She’s really fantastic. I am having a major orthopedic issue right now and when steroid shots were recommended, she sat me down and told me exactly why she wouldn’t personally recommend them to me – she laid out all of the side effects and the supposed benefits. At the end of that talk she said “but if you decide it’s best for you we can do it. I think you should consider (these other treatments) first, though.” She was still leaving it to me to decide what I wanted to do. I decided not to do the steroid shots, tried one of the non-medicinal treatments she suggested instead, and my injury improved. 🙂
Anyway, I am in California now and that is where she’s located. Viva freedom of choice, informed consent and doctors who listen!! 🙂
• 9783 – OverItAll
Mar 18, 2013 at 1:22 am
Diane: Where in Calif are you/doctor? I’d love to see this doctor if she’s nearby. Not all doctors are pro-patient in Calif though, I’ve run into a few already. [Personal contact info deleted]
Graeme: Hope you’re getting better, a friend of mine was recently diagnosed with Bell’s Palsy. My college “required” a full physical with gyn for women (but not for men…), but in the box I wrote “informed decision – Decline”. No one every asked about it and I also wrote that my last physical was 4 years prior (though I left out that I was seeing OBGYNs for cycle problems).
Welcome, Ann UK! Hope to see you here often as we need to get the truth out!
• 9784 – Torrance * Connecticut, U.S.A.
Mar 18, 2013 at 8:40 am
Kleigh, I think it’s a general common-place that all college girls are forced into gynecological crap upon entering college at the whim of the always-male doctors. I think it’s tragic and unfortunate that girls are put on the spot, many are virgins (I certainly was) and expected to comply or else are threatened with expulsion. God only knows the video-taping equipment in those perverts’ offices. No, I doubt they herd the male students in there.
Blogger 7:41 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9785 – Susanne (USA)
Mar 18, 2013 at 10:12 am
This article from ABC News really irks me. http://blogcritics.mcercado.mtv-dev03.technorati.com/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-197/abcnews.go.com/Health/parental-fear-blocks-hpv-vaccination-teens/story?id=18755402.html
• 9786 – Susanne (USA)
Mar 18, 2013 at 10:16 am
Oops! I did not get the link right.
In short, it’s an article from ABC News with those in the medical community claiming parental fear is what’s behind the decision to forego the HPV vaccine. Maybe it’s not just that, but also people being tired of Big Pharma trying to make money off of everyone every which way they can. I’m not saying there aren’t great drugs out there that do help people, but it seems we are becoming more and more overmedicated.
• 9787 – Chrissy (UK)
Mar 18, 2013 at 10:39 am
Ann,
Your link to the NHS “Cervical Screening Social Marketing Project†made interesting reading.
The quotes below are taken from the campaign webpage:
“Social marketing is a way of bringing about positive behaviour change among individuals, groups or whole communities.â€
“It borrows many techniques from ‘mainstream’ marketing — such as consumer research and advertising. But, unlike most forms of marketing, the goal is not to generate profit, but to achieve social good.â€
Unfortunately, their campaign translates as ‘We know what’s best for you’. ‘Do as we tell you’. ‘The only choice we want you to have is the choice to have the test’. ‘There are no downsides to screening, only benefits’.
If all else fails, use emotional blackmail (you will leave your child motherless)
Underhand? Patronising? Manipulating? Of course. It’s aimed at women.
Same old BS.
• 9788 – Cindy Smith
Mar 18, 2013 at 7:59 pm
Ask your doctor for a CSA blood test and delphi screener (you can use the delphi screener yourself). These tests are more accurate (test for everything that a pap smear does) and don’t violate you.
I am 36 and have never had one and never will!
• 9789 – Diane (US)
Mar 19, 2013 at 2:53 am
I will say, I was never required to do a physical for university – and I went to four. All they wanted, at all of those, were my immunization records to ensure I was up to date on vaccinations for the common stuff: measles, mumps, rubella, polio, the diphtheria/whooping cough/tetanus trio and Hep B. When I went to school in Europe for a year they wanted a negative TB test but that was it. I would tell any student to transfer the heck out of any school that required a pelvic/pap!
Blogger 7:42 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9790 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Mar 19, 2013 at 1:03 pm
Yes, I’ve arrived in London and head up to Oxford on Friday…the conference is on Monday and Tuesday.
Graeme, hope you’re feeling better soon. You’ll probably find both your son and daughter will be offered Gardasill at some point. Australia is going to vaccinate boys now. I can tell you one thing…if my son or daughter was offered this vaccination, I’d be doing my own careful research…and would never accept the information provided by official sources.
I know they argue severe reactions to the drug are rare, but so is cervical cancer. It also, protects against warts…how common are they, what is the treatment? etc
All of these things involve a weighing up of risk and actual benefit…and we won’t get that from official sources.
• 9791 – Sue
Mar 19, 2013 at 5:43 pm
Elizabeth thank you for the update. I’ve been looking forward to posts from you and I’m glad to hear you arrived safe and sound.
Ann, if you are still reading I have utilized your comment for a post. It was the only way to get the image loaded directly onto my site – it is a powerful image and message. Please let me know if you want any changes, etc.
• 9792 – ChasUK
Mar 20, 2013 at 2:39 am
Elizabeth – glad you arrived safely and look forward to hearing all about the conference.
I have recently noticed on the UK NHS website that the HPV pages have been changed and all the previous comments have been removed, although there is now one February comment, not for it but against it. There were so many comments all removed, most not in favour of this vaccine because of health issues the young girls are experiencing and some serious conditions, but most of the medical profession will not admit to it! I also noticed a slight difference in the Cervical screening Facts PDF – they have removed the part that states “may receive unnecessary treatment” – this leaflet is supposed to explain benefits, risks, false positives and false negatives – those words FALSE & NEGATIVE are not even printed in the PDF leaflet! I remember the one I had from way back in 2009 as I highlighted in yellow all the points that concerned me and presented it to my GP when I refused to continue with this programme, also mentioning targets & incentive payments, of which he denied nothing I said. So far I have had 4 NHS letters chasing me, all of which are from different addresses via one main database, think I want off this database but fear that is near impossible! Oh and their envelopes, large printed NHS and screening, not exactly private & confidential as what is also on the envelope, hardly private is it.
We still have not heard from Jacqui, I do hope she is on the road to some recovery.
Take care you lovely people!
• 9793 – Graeme NZ
Mar 21, 2013 at 3:52 am
Thanks for all the kind words guys. No straw today. I can almost drink normally.
• 9794 – Graeme NZ
Mar 22, 2013 at 3:59 am
We have already decided neith daughter nor son will receive gardasil. They can choose themselves later as adults. We would only advise they have/gain the knowledge required for informed consent.
Blogger 7:42 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9795 – Torrance * Connecticut, U.S.A.
Mar 22, 2013 at 5:38 am
Good for you, Graeme. Gardasil has caused several deaths in teenaged girls here in America who were fine until being vaccinated (most likely against their wills).
• 9796 – Graeme NZ
Mar 22, 2013 at 3:34 pm
Elizabeth all girls in NZ are currently offered gardasil in year 8 at school. so they are 12/13 at the time of offer. Parents can decline it. Interestingly kids can choose for themselves at quite a young age here. I think 14. So a clever government could just offer it then and parents would have no say really.
• 9797 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Mar 22, 2013 at 9:47 pm
Graeme, You’re wise to be cautious, personally, I wouldn’t be prepared to accept a lot of risk when it comes to preventing or screening for a rare cancer. Even with far more common breast cancer, if screening helps few, but leads to significant over-diagnosis…no thanks.
Sadly, most people don’t appreciate that screening often carries serious risk for little or no benefit.
Ann, love your fightback posters. The one with the distressed child is plain offensive. There is something very wrong when a screening authority thinks this is an appropriate way to get women into screening. They need a major shake-up…it’s an outrageous way to treat women. Screening requires real information, not a PR team and psychologists manipulating us. Creating our own version makes clear we know what they’re doing…and they won’t like that.
There are some interesting articles over at Kevin MD, including one by the *American Ob-gyn who closed a thread on her blog to stop discussion on the value, need and risks with pap testing. I mentioned her conduct to Dr Sherman and he kindly sent her an email…she apologized, gave a quick answer and again, closed the thread. I avoid her blog, she deleted one of my posts a few months ago because I mentioned the Delphi Screener, she was concerned I might be marketing it. It felt like censorship to me when she deleted my entire post, rather than the lines on self-testing. These doctors need to understand they can’t keep the facts and better testing options from women forever, that worked for decades, but now more sites are accepting our posts. (thanks Blogcritics, and Dr Sherman) and we now have several excellent and informative websites that promote critical discussion, thanks Sue, Beth…and there is also the Violets to Blue site. All of this has happened over about 5 years…fabulous.
Anyway, the articles are called, “Ob Gyns are not primary care physicians” and *”An Ob-Gyn’s perspective on choosing wisely”…some of you might like to post. It’s worth keeping an eye on that blog as many of the authors and readers are doctors. It’s a good way of listening in on their discussions as well…
• 9798 – ADM (Canada)
Mar 23, 2013 at 5:59 am
That poster of the little boy crying to promote cervical cancer screening is offensive. I cannot believe they get away with that as it is coercion.
I was listening to talk radio yesterday and there was a tidbit on kidney cancer and they were discussing how rare it is and there isn’t a screening test for it. I decided to look up Canadian stats to see how rare and guess what it’s more common than cervical cancer. In 2012 there were 12 per 100,000 people with kidney cancer and cervical cancer there was 7 per 100,000. So why is such a big deal made about pap smears?
I was baffled this week when I had to pay $5 to my Drs office to get a copy of my blood work results and yet they have sent me two unsolicited letters for free to remind me that my pap smear was “overdue”. They are willing to spend the resources to harass people about tests they don’t want but when you want something that is yours you have to pay.
• 9799 – Chrissy (UK)
Mar 23, 2013 at 7:36 am
The poster of the little boy crying is used because the campaigners know that a mother’s Achilles heel is her child.
Their shameful use of emotional manipulation probably couldn’t sink any lower.
Blogger 7:43 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9800 – Diane (US)
Mar 23, 2013 at 11:44 am
ADM, that’s one of the things that always baffles me. Kidney cancer, pancreatic, ovarian, etc…all these rare cancers are more common than cervical cancer. You’d never see a doctor going into hysterics or tell you that you were risking your health by skipping your kidney cancer screening!
Not to mention that they are so fixated with CC that they miss real problems. I know someone who unfortunately was just diagnosed with ovarian cancer bout a week ago. She has had symptoms for MONTHS and kept being blown off by the doctors, kept being told it was indigestion or gallstones…and this is with a KNOWN HISTORY of ovarian cancer in her family.
She was never offered the genetic testing they can do for ovarian cancer – apparently they have isolated the gene for OC and they can test you if you have a family history, to see if you are a carrier. It’s not the CA125 test. When she said she had these symptoms nobody even brought up OC…but I’m damn sure they heckled her about pap smears.
• 9801 – Mary (aus)
Mar 23, 2013 at 3:05 pm
Exactly Diane. When I went to my doctor with symptoms which sounded like ovarian cancer, the first thing my doctor asked was if I was up to date with my pap smear. He also fobbed me off and made no attempts to invstigate.He told me OC is rare and blamed the media for making OC a bigger issue than it is.
I have come to the conclusion through a lot of different incidents with a lot of different GPs, that they either have the most rudimentary knowledge or out dated incorrect information. I always do my own research after a doctors consultation and more often than not what they have told me is not scientifically supported or wrong.Their knowledge seems no better or more in depth than what I read in a Sunday paper magazine health section.
Elizabeth I’m looking forward to your report.
• 9802 – Mary (aus)
Mar 23, 2013 at 4:51 pm
I’ll give you an example of the bad advice that GPs give. Just yesterday I found out that my friend’s husband, who has a heart condition, has been advised to take calcium suppliments. I only read the other day a study that showed calcium supplements increase a man’s risk of heart attack or stroke by 50% while the benefits of reducing bone fractures are minimal. His doctor could just kill him with that advice.
• 9803 – Graeme NZ
Mar 23, 2013 at 9:10 pm
I have seen my GP use google during my consult. They do have a lack of knowledge.
• 9804 – Mary (aus)
Mar 23, 2013 at 10:39 pm
I told my friend to go off the calcium. He’s off it anyway but of course I was just laughed at for daring to contradict the advice of a demigod.
Another example. I was discussing bowel cancer with my GP. I have one family member on both sides of the family with it. My GP said Oh that’s OK they’re not on the same side. Logic and most basic high school biology tells me that’s more cause for concern. Gastroenterologist I saw confirms it and says it makes me more at risk not less. And people listen to GPs.
Blogger 7:43 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9805 – ADM (Canada)
Mar 24, 2013 at 6:45 am
I’ve realized over the past couple of years that GP’s often have little knowledge and most of it is outdated. My old Dr used to tell me to drink 8 glasses of water a day which is information that was never true. My current GP does not know about vitamin D and it’s link with preventing several cancers (in fact the denied that their is a link and did not know about the current research) and he still believes that cholesterol is linked with heart disease. I could go on. A lot of the information the medical profession believes and passes on is based on old and/or bad science that was later disproven but the medical profession has clung to the original claims. Cancer screening is one example and the belief that it saves lives and is prevention. The fact that there is no scientific backing to their claims does not seem to appear to be an issue for them. Or they do not realize that is no scientific backing to their claims as they just pass on what they learned without researching to see if it is true. They do not keep up with current information and they prescribe medications based on what the drug rep tells them and do not do their own research. Mostly because they do not have the time. I don’t listen to my GP and just see him to get the prescription that I need. Their focus on pap smears at the ignoring of other health risks I have just proves that I need to be in control of my health and not rely on them. The medical profession claims that they practice based on scientific evidence but I have learned that is very far from the truth.
• 9806 – Kleigh (US)
Mar 24, 2013 at 7:59 am
also the with the cholesterol being linked to heart diesase that is big bussines too. alot of pple I know are being tested and told there cholesterol levels are high and they need to take statens. my grandmother was told her had high blood pressuer and was put on statens. well after a year of being on them her legs can barly move and she does not feel like going any were she can barly walk and now uses wheel chars when she goes out. She and her friends are now almost cripled from the meds but they all tell me that they will have a strok and die if they dont take the meads. my aunt refused to take statens aganst her doctors orders changed her diet and now her cholseterol is lower. and look at all the youg childern that are being put on statens. its all about brainwashing and money.
• 9807 – Graeme NZ
Mar 24, 2013 at 1:10 pm
ADM yes and also doctors will tailor their treatments to take advantage of government incentive payments where they exist. This is a clear breach of ethics. MY GP is trying to get me to have a blood test but it is only because she has to meet a govt target.
• 9808 – Mary (aus)
Mar 24, 2013 at 1:48 pm
Let’s face it, with rounding up they only have to know 49.5% to pass to become doctors.Coupled with their arrogance, it’s no wonder they can be so ignorant.
• 9809 – Eline (Europe)
Mar 24, 2013 at 4:23 pm
In reply to the commonness of cervical cancer, if they actually admit that cc is rare they usually argue it is only rare because of pap smears – the huge amount of women who had their cervixes butchered would have gone on to develop cancer. They are very successful at completely not mentioning false positives and unnecessary treatment. It leaves a woman who has unnecessarily lost bits and pieces of her healthy cervix grateful instead of pissed off. She is then very likely to remain a faithful customer. Ka-ching!
Blogger 7:44 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9810 – Alice (Australia)
Mar 24, 2013 at 6:46 pm
I have always been shocked and annoyed by the utter uselessness of GPs. Their knowledge is almost always very superficial and outdated, and yet we are forced to pass through a GP before we can get a test, a medication or a specialist we really need. GPs are like a firewall between the patients and the true medical service.
It is sickening that Australians can’t get a single test, scan, x-ray or ultrasound without going to a useless GP first, even if we pay for the test of our choice! We are forced to waste our time and money on a visit to a GP only to be pestered about unrelated screening and told nonsense, then we manage to get a referral for the test we require, and then the results are sent back to the GP (they are not given to us!), and then we have to waste another day and more money to see that GP again, and, if we are lucky, we can get a copy of the results for an additional fee.
A very “efficient” medical system! Patronage and disrespect for patient’s choice at every step.
• 9811 – Sue
Mar 26, 2013 at 3:02 pm
Elizabeth I’m so impressed you wrote to Dr. Sherman about your comment being deleted, and it certainly sounds like censorship to me as well! It is maddening how the self-screener is kept hidden from women.
I’ve been appreciating the discussion on doctors and their usefulness/lack thereof. The most recent comment over on my site is very disturbing: they are handing out sweets to promote paps! It reminds me of a comment Jacqui made a while back about a man in a trench coat . . . he’ll give you a lolly if you show him your vagina. So creepy.
• 9812 – RegisteredNurse-SCAM medicine
Mar 28, 2013 at 12:38 am
I’ve been in the health “care” system for over 30 years and let me tell you that most of it is pure SCAM. Most “tests” are scams. Listen to enlightened pharmacist (he hates drugs)Ben Fuchs (BrightSideBen website) and you’ll see that he also agrees. Save yourself and stay away from doctors pharmacists and hospitals (unless you really need them for traumatic injury)
• 9813 – RegisteredNurse-SCAM medicine
Mar 28, 2013 at 12:40 am
Look at how modern “medicine” developed via the evil Rockefeller foundation and you’ll understand how we’ve all been brainwashed. And hear G. Edward Griffins audio about “The Creature from Jekyll Island.” Stay well and trust yourself.
• 9814 – Torrance * Connecticut, U.S.A.
Mar 28, 2013 at 6:26 am
Registered Nurse, I totally agree with medicine being a scam unless you break your leg or something which truly requires fixing. I HATE now being forced to buy insurance or face paying a fine. I don’t go to doctors and have NEVER believed in going. I wish they’d repeal that nonsense.
Blogger 7:45 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9815 – Kleigh (US)
Mar 28, 2013 at 10:55 am
I need to vent. My grandmother got a pink letter in the mail to come in for her yearly mamogram. I told her about false poitves and radiation. well she got mad and told me that I was “fool of bull” And that i was “brainwashed from reading things online.” thin she went on telling me about how millons of woman have been saved from mamograms. and that even if just one woman is saved it was worth it. I told her that because she had mamograms every year radeation was building up in her body. she thin said ” its that or die”. and she has made comments in the past that she was worried that i will put my self indanger when i get older because i will refuse mamograms. I do think screening is a personal choice but i also feel like she is being mislead and taken advantage of. I hate it that woman attack others for not screening. i was almost in trears. it really scares me how brainwashed woman are. and she keep talking about her friend who was saved by a mamogram. and also that my uncels were saved from prostate cancer because they were screened. she looked at me and yelled “its cancer.”
• 9816 – Kleigh (US)
Mar 28, 2013 at 11:15 am
and a agree thses tests are a scam . years ago people ony saw a doctor if they were sick or injered. now we esp woman are pused to go when we are healty so they can look for somthing wrong that they can fix. it has turned into a bussnes
• 9817 – Eline (Europe)
Mar 28, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Kleigh, women only get to know the pros of screening, the cons are hidden from them – they make their decisions out of a very one-sided understanding of screening. Why not let your grandmother read the Mammography Screening Leaflet from the Nordic Cochrane Centre, http://www.cochrane.dk/screening/mammography-leaflet.pdf you could print out a copy for her. It probably won’t change her mind, maybe she won’t read it at all… But at least you have provided her with complete, accurate and factual information, what she does with it is her choice.
• 9818 – Kleigh (US)
Mar 28, 2013 at 1:45 pm
thank you Eline. she thinks if its just one doctor questioning its probly not true. and she also said that doctors whould not put people thru treatments and sergery if they didnt have cancer. she whould have chemo at a drop of a hat if her doctor told her too. she is so febel now from old age theres no way she whould ever servive any treatmants if she had a false positve. it scares me.
• 9819 – Torrance * Connecticut
Mar 29, 2013 at 12:42 pm
You’re a good daughter and granddaughter, Kleigh. I was a good daughter, too, but nobody would (nor will they now) listen to me.
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• 9820 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Mar 29, 2013 at 8:44 pm
Hi everyone,
I’m home again after a very long flight, but have a heavy cold…so spending the day in bed catching up on your posts. I was unable to access this site while I was in Oxford…it wouldn’t load or my comments were blocked.
I really enjoyed the conference and met lots of interesting people and heard lots of disturbing things. Professor Peter Gotzsche from the NCI was the “star” in my opinion….I also, enjoyed Dr McCartney, who showed the audience Ann’s spoof NHS poster. Muir Gray and Jack Wennberg also, spoke well. There were some interesting talks on non-disclosure and bias in medical research and research misconduct/scientific fraud and we heard from an investigative journalist who took on Wakefield’s claims that vaccination triggers autism. I’ve often been called an “anti-vaxxer” so it was interesting to hear what all that was about…
Kleigh, your grandmother would be surprised to hear many female doctors do not have breast screening. Fiona Godlee, Editor of the BMj, told the audience she had refused her first mammogram. Susan Bewley, UK Ob-Gyn, WITH a family history of breast cancer, has refused breast screening. Dr McCartney will refuse breast screening. In fact, of the 6-7 female doctors I spoke to over coffee, not one has or will have breast screening. So there is a major disconnect in screening…those “in the know” and most women. So it’s not one doctor, it’s many doctors…and lots of senior ones as well.
We can only do so much, many women won’t listen to me either, all we can do is try…we’re up against an industry built around/on women’s cancer screening.
I’ll post more information about the conference over the next few days; you might be able to listen to some of the lectures online in a few weeks time, they were being filmed and recorded.
• 9821 – Mary (aus)
Mar 29, 2013 at 9:08 pm
Excellent. Thanks for posting Elizabeth.Get well soon.
So does Dr McCartney read this blog to know about the poster parody?
Yesterday I was thinking about going to my GP for some advice. I suppose I was half asleep and just acting out of habit. And then I thought to myself “What was I thinking?” Of course I then hopped online and did my own comprehensive research and made my own decision and then it just struck me how utterly irelevent GPs are and I wouldn’t trust them to tell me the time. It’s kind of interesting. When I read the book called “Women under the Knife” it talked about how doctors had a really low staus in society about 200 years ago and they crawled their way up and mixed with the aristocracy and made a concerted effort to lift their status until they reached the standing they now have. But I am pretty sure they are on the decline once again now that the internet has shown what dishonest bastards they are.
• 9822 – Graeme NZ
Mar 30, 2013 at 3:27 am
Just to show how pervasive the propaganda is…when I visit this site I am accosted at the top of the page by adverts exhorting me to have a smear or mammogram. These adverts are put out by the NZ screening unit and are targeted. The curerent one is about mammogtrams every two years.
• 9823 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Mar 30, 2013 at 5:07 pm
Mary, I think she said it was posted on her blog.
I know Graeme, I get the same thing. So annoying…talk about mind control, they have to be in our faces all the time.
Dr McCartney has an article on prostate screening on her blog this week.
• 9824 – Alice (Australia)
Apr 02, 2013 at 6:47 pm
Thank you, Elizabeth!
I’ll be waiting for more info from that conference. So interesting! And, of course, it wold be great to see the videos from the conference too.
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• 9825 – Graeme NZ
Apr 04, 2013 at 2:42 am
Torrance what was the Kiwi place you bought OCP? I looked at a site but they said you had to have previous proof of it being prescribed before they will give it to you. My wife is going to try and get OCP from the quack next week to regulate her cycles. She is going through a tough time. However if the quack…female…gives her uphill she wants to buy a low dose pill online and try it for 4 months to see if it improves things. Where is the best for her to try? She is in perimenopause and has a very heavy preiod evey 3 months or so. It leaves her washed out.
Thank you to all of you for your kind messages. The Bells Palsy has cleared up. It was awful I could not close one eye.and had to drink through a straw. Very scary. I am under a lot of stress waiting for my hip replacement which will happen in the next 8 weeks. Am waiting for the call!
• 9826 – Diane (US)
Apr 05, 2013 at 5:30 pm
We have a step in the right direction here: the courts in the USA have ordered Plan B,http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/05/17615372-judge-make-morning-after-pill-available-to-all-girls-without-prescription?lite the morning after pill, to be made available to all women without a prescription. Hopefully this will pave the way for OTC hormonal birth control in the future.
• 9827 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 05, 2013 at 9:47 pm
The conference was informative and confirmed everything we’ve been talking about for a long time now.
It opened with Muir Gray, who co-authored “Screening” with Angela Raffle. He talked about transforming healthcare from an emphasis on population to personalized healthcare.
RCTs are the gold standard for population screening whereas with the latter approach, evidence, choice and decision. (influenced by perceptions of risk and personal risk factors)
He mentioned cataract operations go wrong in 1 in 1000 cases. So the risks should be explained before you agree to the procedure. Some people may not want to take the risk.
Good v Harm is a value judgement that will differ from person to person.
He also talked about moving from hierarchy to networking, for example, respiratory experts might move resources to smoking cessation programs.
The next speaker was the star, in my opinion, so often people tiptoe around screening programs and any criticism is carefully worded so as not to upset the pro-screeners. Not so with Peter Gotzsche from the Nordic Cochrane Institute, he opened with, “breast screening is harmful and should be stopped”…powerful stuff.
He persuaded the Danish Govt not to screen most women and so the perfect controlled trial has been going on in Denmark with only one area of women being screened. The results, “slightly more deaths from breast cancer in the screened group”…he also, presented the charts that show a decline in mortality and how they coincide with the introduction of adjuvant therapy, the same decline was seen in younger unscreened women. So better treatments explain the fall in the death rate, not screening. The introduction of screening also, shows a sharp rise in the number of mastectomies. (and more cases being diagnosed – over-diagnosis)
He mentioned that if there is any benefit, it is taken away with women who die as a result of cancers and heart incidents caused by over-treatment. He pointed to some research by Prof Michael Baum (BMJ, 2013, 346:1385)
3.4 per 100,000 screened women avoid dying from breast cancer;
3-9 per 100,000 will die from lung cancer and heart issues after radiotherapy/chemo.
The Denmark experience also shows screening does not reduce all cause mortality. It’s important to consider all cause mortality as some women die from lung cancer etc as a result of over-treatment and would not be included in the statistics.
He believes about 50% of screen detected cancers are over-diagnosed. This is serious because it causes anxiety, fear, health problems/deaths, insurance issues, creates a false family history etc
He said with no screening a woman automatically reduced the risk of getting a breast cancer diagnosis by a third. He says that screening CAUSES breast cancer or a breast cancer diagnosis. (Early (40s) and frequent (yearly) screening is linked with small radiation induced breast cancers)
The questions from the floor were predictable: “Should we reserve screening for high risk women?”
A: “No, it’s harmful, why would you use it on anyone?”
Q: So what is the alternative?
A: Do you know that song, “Don’t worry, be happy”…no one gets near my prostate, why shouldn’t women have the same right with their breasts?”
I get back to find Breast Screen delighting in the fact more women are having mammograms after Gina Riley had a cancer diagnosed by mammogram…great, women taking advice from a celebrity or acting on fear is fine as long as it helps reach the screening target.
The next speaker was from Amsterdam, Patrick Bossuyt, who spoke about medical testing. He was basically saying we need to consider the consequences of testing BEFORE we test, how true is that? He used the example of karyotype testing for recurrent miscarriage and how the results may deter people from having a family.
I then chose to attend the workshop called Public-Patient involvement. Dr McCartney spoke well and asked: what are we doing in medicine? She mentioned her frustration that the consult is dominated by targets and reminders that divert time and attention away from the patient and the reason for their visit. She showed Ann’s spoof NHS poster and felt it was inappropriate to present cervical screening as a lifestyle choice or use fear/guilt to encourage screening. It should be the woman’s decision, difficult in this pro-screening environment. Several other tests were mentioned that are being offered by private companies. (that are not evidence based) Patients then present with an “abnormal” finding and she’s left to deal with the fall-out. She wants to take politics out of medicine and get back to basics. She mentioned the pressure to have pap tests deters some women from seeing the doctor. Does the current approach lead to better outcomes? No…people with real problems are often made to wait or wade through red tape to get help. (for example: those with depression)
It’s refreshing to hear a doctor making sense and speaking about women in a respectful way.
Another interesting talk was by Professor Prabnat Jha from the University of Toronto, he covered, “Counting the dead in developing countries”. He mentioned cervical cancer and how it’s the most common cancer in women in India, BUT not in all regions. They believe the regions where cervical cancer is rare is because the male population are circumcised (Muslims) and in the areas where the cancer is common, most men are uncircumcised. (Hindu) Uncircumcised men are more likely to have HPV. He felt that HPV vaccination and one screening test would reduce mortality from cc.
We then heard from Howard Bauchner, Editor of JAMA, on scientific integrity in scholarly research. He addressed the problem/challenges of identifying unethical research, fabrication and falsification, conflict of interest, incomplete reporting, misrepresentation and plagiarism. They require an independent statistical analysis before they publish papers. (so some papers/authors choose to go elsewhere)
(With any research it’s important to find out who FUNDED the research and look for conflicts of interest, is the researcher also, the director of a company promoting a product or drug?)
Another interesting lecture: What is the role of the pharmaceutical industry? Saints or Sinners by Sir Michael Rawlins
He considered: – the relative neglect of less common conditions, (not commercially attractive)
– Over-dependency on high volume products,
– Marketing practices and involvement of doctors in promotion and educational meetings often in exotic locations (the UK has stopped the junkets, but it’s still a problem in the States)
– Lack of transparency, (non-release of trials that are negative, distorting the evidence base etc)
ALL research material should be published… (this doesn’t happen at the moment)
Some drugs will never be developed because of cost, we should consider a public/private partnership for the research on non-economic drugs.
Doctors should not do research for pharmaceutical companies unless they agree to release all of the research, good and bad. (they’re protected by patents and marketing agreements)
So, that was Day 1 – I’ll post about Day 2 tomorrow.
One juicy bit of information: Tamiflu is no better than aspirin, yet most governments have spent millions stockpiling the drug. The NCI are calling on the manufacturer to release all clinical trial information. There is an interesting lecture by Peter Gotzsche on You Tube covering this topic.
• 9828 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 06, 2013 at 9:24 am
Diane, I have read alot of sites saying the pill might go over the counter in the next few years. but they all talk about how prfestionals are concerned woman wont come in for pap smears if they could get the pill with out percritions. they say they use the oppertunity to do screenings and well woman exams. kind of suger coating the fact that this is forced on woman who want the pill. to me its rape i dont care how meadical pap smears are when u force a woman aganst her will to take her clothes off and submit to penetration that is a crime. I dont like the power doctors have over woman. its very scary.
• 9829 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 06, 2013 at 9:26 am
And i hear doctors will fight to keep the pill by script only.
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• 9830 – Marìa
Apr 06, 2013 at 10:39 am
targets and incentives are nothing but legal bribes. Sorry for being so harsh, and my language inadequacies, (I am foreign), but there’s something that enrages me. Despite all the detractors, Gardasil has shown effective in preventing the strains of HPV most likely to lead to CC. Why on Earth, I wonder why, are vaccined girls still MANDATED Pap tests? If you’ve been vaccined against smallpox, chickenpox, or rubella, are you offered tests for them later? If you get the smallpox virus, you are guaranteed to get the disease, and we’re not tested for those diseases that, by the way if contracted do have far higher mortality, “just in case the vaccine might not have worked”. Yet few women that have HPV, (even the most dangerous kind) will get the disease. However, every female is suggested to test to death for CC. This is crazy and borders on lunacy!
• 9831 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 06, 2013 at 4:32 pm
Worse than that Maria, we can identify the roughly 5% of women who have a small chance of benefiting from a pap test, but we choose instead to demand pap tests every 2 or 3 years from every woman for most of their lives…when we KNOW 95% of those aged 30 to 60 CANNOT benefit, and no one benefits before age 30. Yet all of these women are exposed to fairly high risk from false positives and over-treatment. Most Australian women my age have had something “done” to their cervix. How can that be justified to screen for a rare cancer? It can’t and that’s why no one talks about it and why the facts are closely guarded.
It says to me they’re protecting the profits from over-screening and over-treating. We’d save more lives and spare huge numbers of women from painful and damaging over-treatment if we simply offered HPV testing and HPV self testing from age 30. We see “experts” twisting and turning to maintain the status quo, which suits them. I feel Australia will end up with 3 yearly pap testing from age 25, so vested interests win, women lose…again.
Kleigh, that argument is accepted for women’s cancer screening, yet I don’t hear doctors demanding men see them for condoms or Viagra and have a colonoscopy or prostate screening before they get a script. It’s a blatant double standard, they view women very differently and disrespectfully…like medical fodder.
• 9832 – Diane (US)
Apr 06, 2013 at 4:32 pm
Kleigh, I’ve heard and read the same. Every time you see an article about putting the pill OTC there are invariably the comments about how it’s going to put women at risk because they won’t come in for their “well woman exams” anymore. Doctors are oh so worried that they won’t be able to use the Pill to blackmail their victims/patients into exams they neither want nor need.
I hope that even if doctors push for the pill to remain prescription-only, it will happen. I know there are a number of other drugs, like antihistamines, that have also gone OTC over objections from Big Pharma/doctors.
And Maria, I agree with you1 00% on Gardasil. If they concede that CC comes mostly from two specific strains of HPV and those are eliminated by Gardasil, it’s even more ridiculous to insist on paps. Doctors still swear up and down that being HPV-free means nothing and that paps are necessary…and it’s unethical.
I hope that between the growing number of women who have had the Gardasil vaccine and those who are educating themselves, and the possibility of the Pill going OTC in the future, we will see legions of women who say “I don’t need this. I don’t want it. I am not going to endure these exams anymore.” It would turn the entire OB-GYN industry upside down, and I think that’s a good thing. A very good thing. It really does highlight how unethical it is and how much of the GYN industry is fueled by outright misinformation and scare tactics instead of solid medicine.
• 9833 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 06, 2013 at 4:44 pm
Diane, the thing that shocks me is the silence from most doctors. When Tampap was released in the UK and women could self-test for HPV, they told women they’d still need regular pap tests even if they were HPV-…no one contradicted this “medical advice”. It says to me it’s fine to sell women another test, as long as you don’t take customers away from pap testing. Pap testing a HPV- woman is risk for zero benefit…the medical profession needs a major shake-up and it will only happen when fewer women are willing to submit to this abuse.
• 9834 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 06, 2013 at 4:45 pm
I agree how many woman do you think they will lose if the pill became over the counter and the loss of follow ups doctors might try new ways to trap woman.
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• 9835 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 06, 2013 at 4:51 pm
I have also heard that gyns hate when woman use none hormonal birth control methods or obstain. I read of a gyn shaming a woman for abstaning after she turned down a pill script . the woman gyn then told her ” she could meet lots of guys at nite clubs”. its sick.
• 9836 – Sia
Apr 06, 2013 at 5:23 pm
Elizabeth thanks for taking the time to do the summery from the conference, I’m looking forward to part two.
Re Professor Prabnat Jha’s paper, male circumcision and the spread of HPV is controversial subject, some studies http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2011/04/04/whats-the-deal-with-male-circumcision-and-female-cervical-cancer/ suggest that while uncircumcised men carry some risk of infecting their female partners, the increase in HPV infection is primarily due to multiple sexual partners and unsafe sex. I also wonder if these regions in India where the incidence of cervical cancer is high could be due to poor living conditions leading to a compromised immune response to the HPV infection.
• 9837 – Sue
Apr 07, 2013 at 12:46 am
Elizabeth I enjoyed your post immensely, it was a real treat to be able to read about what went on behind those ivory doors. I agree with your opinion regarding Peter Gotzsche’s talk – very refreshing and powerful to hear the facts presented so frankly. Dr. McCartney’s talk was encouraging, and how wonderful that she showed the audience Ann’s spoof poster.
Professor Prabnat Jha’s talk covered two opportunistic topics – male circumcision and cervical cancer. I bet the audience loved his speech! I don’t trust the statistics from other countries like India or Africa. When you think about it, how do they know women in Africa even have cervical cancer? From what I’ve heard many women are dying of aids, the hospital care is virtually nonexistent, and women probably don’t get screened for cc. So how are the statistics being collected, and tallied? Do they do biopsies on women? How are they “counting” those statistics, and who is recording them?
Diane, the article on the morning after pill going OTC to all ages was much appreciated. I remember reading (maybe it was posted here) about a woman who was trying to get a diaphragm but couldn’t find one. They used to have them available, I had one some time ago. They probably don’t want women using them because – well we know why. So frustrating.
They aren’t going to let this go without a fight. The Canadian drs are still complaining about the new guidelines to stop screening women under 25. The spin they are putting on it is that the gov’t is trying to save money, and that they are putting women’s lives at risk. Well, no, that’s not why. It’s because women are having such difficulties with pregnancy, giving birth to premature/stillborn babies. The task force/gov’t is trying to stem the tide of cervical butchering that is taking place.
• 9838 – David (UK)
Apr 07, 2013 at 3:21 pm
I’m a little off-track subject wise but if I may, I would like to mention that my wife was recently admitted to an Ob ward within a UK NHS hospital and she requested minimum intimate examinations and only necessary ones to be performed by female doctors only. Needless to say, her bedside was still approached by eager and smooth talking male doctors wanting to examine her!? She rejected these doctors and subsequently was subjected to a D.V. investigation with an implication that she may be married to an abusive or controlling husband!? We are both shocked and VERY offended! We can’t understand why her initial requests weren’t taken seriously? Are we such rare patients?
• 9839 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 07, 2013 at 6:48 pm
David, welcome and I’m sorry to hear about your experience, but not really surprised. Women are supposed to just submit, that’s how the system works with IMO, zero respect for our right to make an informed decision, or even say NO. There are numerous studies that ponder why some women don’t submit to pap testing and they conclude we’re uneducated, immature, have been victims of sexual assault and one study even suggested we’re likely to be non-voters. So, IMO, there is an impatience and intolerance with women who stand up for themselves and wish to be treated like more than a member of the herd.
I don’t know how many women actually demand all-female care and for intimate exams to be kept to a minimum, but I imagine some/many give up, overwhelmed by a system that treats us with enormous disrespect. Just the fact those doctors showed up at your wife’s bedside is an indication her wishes were not really taken seriously and of course, we have the warped view that if she has a problem permitting all and sundry to do as they please with HER body, SHE has the problem. It’s typical of the attitudes we see and experience in women’s “healthcare”.
I wouldn’t let them get away with it, I’d sit down and send a detailed letter of complaint and perhaps, send one to your local member. All of this is only acceptable because they get away with it in most cases.
So pleased your wife (with your support) was able to fend off the mob.
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• 9840 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 07, 2013 at 6:59 pm
I’ll post about Day 2 of the conference later in the day. I haven’t forgotten…
Sue, yes, you’ve identified some of the problems. Research has been going on in India to identify cause of death so they can direct resources into that area. (as far as they exist) There are 56 million deaths every year, 48 million in low and medium income countries. (usually at home with no medical attention) So the Indian Million Death study relied on the “verbal autopsy”…they sent trained field officers to the homes of those recently deceased, who interviewed members of the family. This information was then sent to physicians who assigned the most likely cause of death. (a supervisor may have the final say) As a result they have a better idea of disease in India…one million smoking deaths, 200,000 malaria deaths in adults, HIV assigned to 100,000 deaths. (it was thought to be 400,000)
They know mosquitoes are a bigger problem is certain areas (wet areas), so death following high fever is likely to be malaria, less likely in another area. (dry area…possibly meningitis)
Childhood malaria has dropped…in high risk areas they have provided more mosquito nets and sprayed more areas.
Cancer in India – there were 600,000 deaths assigned to cancer. 70% occur in middle age.
There is twice the level in people with lower education levels. (I suppose that brings in factors like poorer standard of living, weaker immune system, poorer diet etc)
Breast cancer occurs more often in Hindu women. (than Muslim women)
It’s clearly not as good as an autopsy, but some believe it’s reasonably reliable and in some cases, can clearly identify a problem that can be reduced without a lot of expense. (mosquito nets, not living close to water, keeping your kids clothed and covered at night, spraying, repellant etc)
I agree that if an uncircumcised man wears a condom the chance of contracting HPV (if he has it) is only slightly higher. Apparently, the foreskin creates a moist environment and so STIs are more likely and tiny cuts that naturally occur in the foreskin can expose the man to infection.
I know there is an American study that showed college women embarking on a sex life were 70% less likely to have HPV if they always insisted on a condom (most of this HPV clears in a year or two anyway). No mention was made of circumcision.
So if there was a study comparing 2 groups, one circumcised, the other not, both practising safe sex, my guess is the HPV rates would only be slightly higher in the uncircumcised group and perhaps, cc rates might be similar or only slightly higher.
Also, can you compare an uncircumcised Indian and American man? Poorer people may have issues with hygiene, access to clean, running water, poorer immune systems…keeping the foreskin area clean is probably harder if you’re poor and living in an area with poor infrastructure.
I read once the women get more UTIs if their husband is uncircumcised, again, I imagine this comes down to hygiene. Same levels of hygiene…do the UTIs come down?
Cancer deaths – lung cancer went up along with cigarette consumption. Long term smokers lose on average a decade of life. (Women lose 11 years) If you quit by 40, you get back 9 years.
Quit at 60, get 4 years of life back. (India has raised taxes on cigarettes)
So now there is interest in doing a 10 million Indian death study.
• 9841 – Diane (US)
Apr 07, 2013 at 7:00 pm
One compromise to all-women care – which is not necessarily available in every hospital, especially in emergencies – is to insist that a SO or friend is present during all procedures/consults with doctors. Not a chaperone provided by the hospital – they tend to side with the doctors – but a friend of your choosing who is prepared to be your advocate. In my experience doctors in general are less likely to be jerks when there are witnesses to their behavior. Having a friend or SO there to back you up can be very important in any case.
• 9842 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 07, 2013 at 7:09 pm
Sia, yes, I think you’re probably right. If we include safe sex and other variables, the HPV rates between the groups would be IMO, fairly similar.
“I also wonder if these regions in India where the incidence of cervical cancer is high could be due to poor living conditions leading to a compromised immune response to the HPV infection”
Yes, it would be interesting to know, do the Muslim and Hindu communities differ in other ways? Does one group marry when they’re very young? Does one group have a higher standard of living?
• 9843 – Sue
Apr 08, 2013 at 1:08 am
Thank you Elizabeth, it was fascinating to learn how statistics are being collected in India. More than a little disturbing. I wonder if there is an incentive to inflate the numbers assigned to cervical cancer as cause of death. And if there is no autopsy done how would they know in the first place if a woman had cervical cancer? It would be very difficult to determine without taking a tissue sample, and it sounds as if that is not done.
The African scare tactic reminds me of how mothers would try to get kids to eat their turnips – “there are millions of children starving in Africa who would love to have your turnips”. So the kids say “well they can have my turnips”. Now we have drs saying “there are millions of women in Africa dying of cervical cancer”. But one difference is that the mothers were telling the truth.
David that is dreadful the way you were treated. Instead of doing a domestic violence investigation they should be doing a medical abuse investigation – on themselves. Those drs clearly need a psychological workup. It is yet another way they are trying to maintain control. Similar to the hospital that attempted to “counsel” women who were requesting female practitioners for intimate exams. Again, implying there is something wrong with a woman who doesn’t want a strange man inserting fingers and objects into her vagina. There are symptoms of psychopathy in how some drs are unable/refusing to acknowledge the harms they are inflicting on women, and on women’s significant others.
• 9844 – Jessica (Canada)
Apr 08, 2013 at 1:09 am
When people say that HPV infections “clear,” what does that mean? Does that mean they’re gone from the body, or that they are dormant but can still be passed on, or what? I’ve been told both, and all of this is very confusing…
Reading some posts that mention the Canadian health care systems, and being confused/frustrated myself at the moment (so much contradictory information everywhere!), I am going to vent a little here if that’s ok.
I haven’t been too frustrated with my own GP– he said he wanted me to have a PAP almost a year ago, when I turned 26, but I think he was operating on the assumption that I am sexually active, which I’m not. He didn’t bring it up again on his own, and once I told him that I am abstinent, that was the end of it. But my current frustration comes from a nurse my BF had an appointment with a while ago…
BF wanted some info about HPV because he’s very protective/worries a lot, and learned nothing about HPV in health class beyond “it can cause warts, and if you get them, they can be treated.” He was with one girl in high school (’07 or ’08) and has never had symptoms of anything, but he’s become terrified of someday “giving [me] CC” since he found out that HPV can be asymptomatic and that most CC is caused by HPV. So, he made an appointment and went looking for info. He explained our situation and his fears… and the nurse told him that he “shouldn’t worry about it,” he “probably [has] HPV” and he will “probably give it to [me]” but as long as I am “keeping up with my PAP tests like [I am] supposed to, [I] should be fine.” And then she gave him a pamphlet about PAP testing!
I have a hard time articulating why I am so bothered by it, but… I am. Just her whole attitude seemed to be like “This is for her to worry about, not you, and there’s a test anyway so just get her to have this done regularly” and both he and I have problems with that for so many reasons… Ugh!
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• 9845 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 08, 2013 at 4:22 am
In the US now gyns and hospitals are being pushed by the Acog to screen all woman for inatmate partner violance. to me this is going to far. it is not there job to pry and asume things about womans private lives. How does not wanting a man examing you mean you are aboused. whould a hospital asume that is a man refused to have a genital exam by a woman? I think not. It scares me how controling womans health is. If a woman wants help for an abusive husband or boy friend and tells a doctor, it should be reported but prying in every woman life that walks in the door is going too far.
• 9846 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 08, 2013 at 5:00 am
Jessica, if you consider the new program that’s been recommended by the Health Council of the Netherlands, they won’t be offering pap tests to women who test HPV-
Women can re-test for HPV at 5 or 10 year intervals to guard against a “new” infection…now that suggests to me that once it’s cleared, it’s cleared, but you can get a new infection. I think they try to scare women into pap tests by exaggerating the risk of HPV and cc. We hear that huge numbers are infected, in fact, roughly 5% of women aged 30+ are HPV+…and we know invasive cc is rare, always was in developed countries like Canada, Australia, the States etc
I’ve also, read that women who are HPV- and no longer sexually active might choose to stop all further testing. IMO, the same could be said for those HPV- and confidently monogamous. Most doctors would recommend the latter group keep testing to be safe, in other words, your partner might stray.
The nurse’s attitude doesn’t surprise me, and with all the fuss made about cc, it’s incredible there is apparently no reliable way of testing a man for HPV. How convenient…
All measures seem to be aimed at women, although we’re now offering Gardasil to boys as well.
The major focus is on women though and pap tests, very little time is spent educating people on safe sex and preventing HPV…just the fact they’re happy to pap test all women, rather than offer HPV primary testing (and self-testing) and confine pap tests to those who are HPV+ (and who want to test) says they don’t care about our health or bodily privacy. HPV- women, that’s MOST women, risk their health having pap tests. Also, the horrible overuse of the pap test has done nothing more than expose women to high risk for zero additional benefit.
I’ve found the most reliable information comes from countries like the Netherlands and Finland, both have evidence based programs, although IMO, the Dutch are leading the world…they’ve managed to focus on what’s best for women, rather than wasting resources and harming huge numbers with excess, following “advice” tainted by self-interest or motivated by politics and high and misguided emotion from women’s/survivor/pressure groups.
• 9847 – Chrissy (UK)
Apr 08, 2013 at 9:29 am
David, well done to your wife for refusing to submit to intimate exams by male doctors. And well done to you for being a supportive husband as I can assure you there are many men who really couldn’t care less what happens to their wife or girlfriend at the hands of the medical profession. I know this from personal experience.
The NHS talks a good game about respecting pregnant and labouring women’s wishes, but the reality is often somewhat different. Trying to opt for same gender care is a very hard thing to do unless you go private. We are expected in hospital to accept whatever doctor appears first, and as you found out to your dismay, the choices made by your wife were firstly ignored and then questioned. The implication that you were an abusive, controlling husband, apart from being downright insulting, is a symptom of a pervasive attitude amongst the medical fraternity. I think they genuinely believe they are entitled to intimately examine anyone who comes through the door. They seem to be completely unable to grasp the simple fact that some women really don’t want a complete male stranger crossing personal boundaries and that these women have neither abusive partners or been sexually abused in their past. They also have this annoying attitude that if you are having a baby that your dignity and modesty go out of the window.
I agree with Elizabeth that you should make a complaint in writing. They rely on peoples’ compliance and know that most won’t complain.
All the best to you and your wife.
• 9848 – Jessica (Canada)
Apr 08, 2013 at 9:44 am
Yes, he asked to be tested for it and was told that there’s no way to test a man. We knew that Gardasil is available to both men and women, and BF’s thought was that if he could safely be vaccinated against it, they must know that vaccinated males develop an immunity, therefore they must be able to test for the virus in the male body. The nurse also told him though that if a man is vaccinated it only prevents him from developing warts, and would not prevent him from acquiring (and then passing on) the strains that can cause CC.
One thing we read said that the reason there’s not a test for males is that “there is no humane way to collect a sample from the male genital region” or something like that… It caused a little outburst of “But it’s humane to do that to women?!” followed by some ranting and mutterings such as “if they can rip out a sample of your tissue why can’t they rip out a sample of mine?” He can get blustery when he’s upset 😛 And he was referring to pap testing, not HPV DNA testing… but the stuff we read said that those two tests are performed in a similar way anyway (except a swap for DNA testing, rather than the tissue sample). It also said that HPV DNA testing is not available in all areas, and is used rarely… usually on the recommendation of a physician, and usually only for women 30+ who have had an abnormal pap result.
Anyway, the thing is, he wanted to know if he has it BEFORE passing it on… not know about how I can deal with it after the fact. So, none of it helps with that anyway… but reading and asking questions and looking into all of this has certainly been an experience…
• 9849 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 08, 2013 at 11:34 am
Jessica exactly no one whould dare demand men be put thru what woman are expected to have. from my understanding pap smears were invented when woman were seen as second class. its almost like bc the vagina was made for penetration thin its oaky to force hands and tools in woman to collect a sample. and there is so much money made from this testing and follow ups doctors dont care about how woman feel. to me pap smears seem so barberic. Even tho cc is rare doctors keep woman scared and under control. this means acting like all woman will get this cancer if u dont test. if they tested men they whould lose the hold they have over woman. like you said can you emagen a man testing positve thin haveing a chunk of his penis burnt off or cut? its oaky to damage a cervix but tabo to damge a penis.
Blogger 7:50 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9850 – Chrissy (UK)
Apr 08, 2013 at 12:08 pm
David, I hope I didn’t sound too prescriptive when I used the word ‘should’ in my previous post.
Of course you ‘should’ do whatever feels right for you and your wife.
• 9851 – Diane (US)
Apr 08, 2013 at 1:26 pm
Elizabeth, thank you for posting all the details of the conference – this is intriguing reading.
• 9852 – OverItAll
Apr 08, 2013 at 1:39 pm
Breast Cancer Screenings http://www.ghc.org/healthAndWellness/index.jhtml?item=/common/healthAndWellness/tests/screenings/before50.html prevents 0.5 deaths per 1000 women and comes with “serious risks/benefits” and women “rarely benefit”, especially if under 50. About time someone admitted it.
I noticed someone brough up circumcision. It’s a personal decision, but I felt that my son’s very-likely future sex life was more important than “possibly” catching an STD. There are many benefits to leaving males “intact/natural” (Yes, I “bulldozed” my partner into leaving our son alone):
Benefit 1 http://www.thewholenetwork.org/4/category/the foreskin/1.html
Benefit 2 http://http/www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/benefit3.html
Benefit 3 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3225416/
Function of Foreskin http://www.birthtakesavillage.com/function-of-foreskin
I met with my son’s new doctor. He’s willing to skip the shots with mercury/thimerosal (AKA thiomersal) and the shots made with human/animal tissues, which is almost all of them though I don’t think he knows this. He said that, based on the symptoms, my baby DID have seizures (not “seizure like events” as the Ped said) and it’s even more likely to be seizures if it was the MMR shot, which I’m 99% positive it was. Apparently, the MMR shot/jab/vax is known for causing seizures of all types and it’s much more likely the younger you are, especially if you have even a low fever after the jab/shot.
• 9853 – Alice (Australia)
Apr 09, 2013 at 2:11 am
Jessica, you have a wonderful boyfriend!
That’s exactly what I thought of male HPV testing! If they vaccinate boys against HPV an the vaccine was approved for boys, there must be a test – they had to to make sure the vaccination was effective before giving it to population. Yet, we are still told there is no HPV test for men.
My guess is that HPV test is uncomfortable or painful for men, which is seen as unacceptable. But it’s perfectly “acceptable” to perform uncomfortable and painful tests on women.
That is why men with HPV are told not to worry. The medical system thinks it’s perfectly fine for a man to be HPV-positive, pass the infection to women and endanger their lives with cervical cancer. After all, that’s how women will be forced to submit to regular pap-smear rapes, excruciatingly painful biopsies and barbaric treatments. Doctors will make money. Men will get pleasure. Women will suffer, but who cares?
• 9854 – Graeme NZ
Apr 09, 2013 at 4:34 am
In some african countries currently men are pressured about circumcision. It is meant to reduce aids transfer and reduce CC. The pressure is maybe similar to women with cervical screening.
Blogger 7:52 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9855 – David (UK)
Apr 09, 2013 at 3:35 pm
Thank you Elizabeth, Sue and Chrissy for your thoughtful and supportive words. I appreciate the time that you are giving here in support of femanine modesty within the medical setting. I feel that the hospital done their best upset my Wife just 10 hours prior to the birth of our lovely Daughter. With their D.V. investigation, they upset my Wife at a very emotional time, I feel lucky that she and our Marriage is strong otherwise this kind of thing could have resulted in some women questioning the reasons why some Husbands don’t approve of their Wives submitting to male doctors. It’s not difficult for an authoritive, successful and intelligent man like a doctor, to convince a Wife just prior to labour that her Husband is being ‘possessive’, ‘controlling’, ‘abusive’, ‘jealous’, ‘insecure’, ‘paranoid’, ‘uncaring’, ‘selfish’, ‘old fashioned’ or just ‘troublesome’ at such an emotional time whilst her Husband is abscent (as he has been sent home by the hospital) and the Wife is craving emotional support through fear of giving birth to her first child. I am SO proud of my Wife that she didn’t weaken and submit to this Doctor.
• 9856 – David (UK)
Apr 09, 2013 at 3:59 pm
and Chrissy (UK)… no of course I don’t think your advice was pushy. I appreciate your advice, it’s clear that you’re a caring and sensitive lady, shame the NHS Hospitals here in the UK don’t have many Sisters like you on the wards. Even though we agreed that female care would be the best way for us (we requested it and noted our wishes on the birth plan) and my Wife rejected the doctor, she was worried that she may of offended hospital ward staff and was left feel uncomfortable from that moment onwards. She kept the D.V. questioning from me until after the birth of our daughter, I’m certain the situation effected the birthing experience for us. Such a shame they couldn’t have been more understanding. We had mentioned that we had already had enough intimate intervention from male doctors through my Wife’s numerous infertillity investigations and male IVF specialists. We just wanted the birth to be “male doctor free” as we didn’t have much say through the infertillity procedures as we were made to feel grateful for receiving help as it’s not a “lifethreatening condition”. My Wife felt obligated to allow the Doctors to do whatever they pleased with her and they knew it, I could sense that during meetings with the consultants and specialist doctors. The whole situation made me quite unwell as I felt powerless to intervene as I didn’t have the money to pay for private healthcare and my Wife was desperate to become a Mother. The situation is a common one, wide open to abuse.
• 9857 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 09, 2013 at 5:20 pm
It’s horrible that so often we walk away from medical care feeling violated, traumatized and abused. The profession has always fobbed off requests for same gender care, the standard response was to ridicule people, but now more people are standing firm with their requests. It’s still difficult though, in the public sector.
I’ve noticed over the years that women tend to find a way to “deal” with this sort of treatment, some put themselves down, “I’m being silly”…others try to rationalize the situation, “he’s a professional after all”, others never talk about it and push it out of their mind, (or try to) some become depressed, angry, upset or go on to avoid doctors altogether. Some people choose not to have more children, that way they avoid putting themselves back there again, in harms way.
The thing is…when we feel the need to “deal” with something, we’ve been negatively affected by it, IMO, it’s a coping mechanism. Psychological damage can last a lifetime, it’s no different to physical damage. Is it really a medical success to deliver a healthy baby and leave the mother/parents traumatized and distressed? I’d say definitely not…it’s forgetting about the things that make us human beings, our feelings, our self-esteem, dignity and bodily privacy. Treating people like mere bodies is unacceptable and IMO, bad medicine.
On the Birth Trauma site I read a post a couple of years ago from the father of a woman who was abused during childbirth, she developed depression and committed suicide. Her parents admit they fobbed off her distress at the lack of respect for her bodily privacy and dignity during labour and delivery. Everyone focused on the baby and dismissed her concerns.
We’ve been “told” for decades “how” we feel doesn’t matter, we should all be grateful, especially in women’s healthcare.
I think Dr Sherman and Dr Bernstein have great forums on patient privacy and they show many people have been affected by this issue.
It’s a difficult thing, but you and your wife have shown by standing up for yourselves, you can get same gender care. I think by continuing to voice objections, standing firm, sending letters of complaint etc, we can slowly change the system. I think in the past many felt awkward speaking out about this issue, but that’s changing too. (It’s similar to screening, some women don’t like to say they choose not to have pap tests for fear of judgement and verbal attack)
This issue is real and can’t be ignored because it suits the system.
• 9858 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 09, 2013 at 5:37 pm
David, one other thought, you might also, send a letter to the infertility people asking them to make available more female doctors. You could mention how it made your wife (and you) feel having no choice of doctor. It’s the sort of treatment that involves invasive exams, tests and procedures and it’s only natural some women will prefer same-sex care. In some cases women may choose not to have treatment if a female doctor is unavailable. If it can be managed in a private clinic, it should be possible in a public hospital. Anything that makes the procedures more tolerable, should be provided. I know women who’ve had fertility and IVF treatment and as private patients requested and received all-female care with no drama at all. I think a lot of this comes down to the system simply not caring enough, just going through the motions.
• 9859 – Chrissy (UK)
Apr 10, 2013 at 10:51 am
Elizabeth, spot on again. You should be called on to give psychology lessons to student doctors. The power differential between doctors and patients has always made me uneasy and is amplified when the doctor is male and the patient is female. When the interaction involves the removal of clothing, exposure of intimate body parts, possible pain or discomfort, feelings of humiliation and loss of dignity, the power balance is overwhelmingly on the doctor’s side. I am sure they are well aware of this.
For the life of me, I cannot fathom out how they lack the empathy to understand how unnatural and embarrassing an intimate examination is for a woman, and then to add insult to injury, to assume that she will be OK with being examined by all and sundry. As if that is not bad enough, to then imply that the woman has a ‘problem’ if she is not OK with this, to insinuate that only immature, abused or uneducated women object to this, is to my mind an underhand and unethical psychological manipulation of women at their most vulnerable.
Blogger 7:52 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9860 – Mary
Apr 10, 2013 at 1:57 pm
Well said Chrissy. In the online version of the Medical Journal of Australia there was an article about medical students needing more practise catching babies as more women are refusing medical students being present at the birth. The comment by one older doctor was breathtakingly arrogant and misogynistic. He lamented the good old days when women we forced to have medical students at their birth and by his attitude he obviously saw women as nothing more than teaching tools.
• 9861 – Mary
Apr 10, 2013 at 2:15 pm
Actually I thought I would copy it as it is so unbelievable:
“It seems clear that medical students are having to fight to get to do deliveries, yet many of them could end up on a rural/remote rotation as a JHO where they really need obstetric skills. When I was a Year 5 med student doing my O&G rotation, the consultant obstetricians made it very clear to both the patients and the midwives that we were to do a certain minimum number of supervised vaginal deliveries and PV exams on pregnant women, regardless of any other considerations. I can vividly recall one patient being told that, if she wished to avail herself of free obsteric care in the public hospital system, she would have to agree to have medical student involvement in her ante-natal clinic visits and her delivery. Presumably that is politically incorrect now. I also clearly recall one very obstructionist midwife being verbally chastised by the matron in the labour ward for trying to divert medical student deliveries to student midwives. Oh, for the good old days! The system worked then, and I was able to avoid any obstetric disasters when I was rotated to become Medical Superintendent of a country hospital for two months soon after completion of my intern year.
I suggest that the RACOG be given responsibility for determining a uniform undergraduate O&G curriculum across all medical schools in Australia, and the authority to enforce compliance from hospitals for minimum numbers of medical student deliveries.”
Here’s another comment worth quoting:
“A difficult one, but until the O&G team take the lead and ensure that students have access/right to deliver this will be an ongoing issue. I entered medical school looking at O&G as a specialty, but due to the interface with the midwives and difficulties with access to normal births, the shine was taken off it! I watched/participated in 5 normal births at medical school (3 was compulsory) but I made a massive effort to do so. I spent an elective in Barbados which was entirely different, the 4th year med students almost ran the labour ward and had significant responsibilities. They delivered large numbers of babies, did the episiotomies, and had a huge input. However the woman’s rights were of minimal consequence and I cant forget the time a group of 10 medical students surrounded a professor whilst he did a PV examination, inviting all students to do so also. (I declined — this was in 1999). Surely there must be a balance though. I am now a psychiatrist….(by the way I would never go through the public system to deliver as I would absolutely want a consultant, but I would have been very happy to have a medical student attend both of my deliveries in the private sector).”
• 9862 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 10, 2013 at 4:20 pm
Mary, the first commenter sounds like a dinosaur, oh, for the good old days… “listen here girlie”…horrifying. The second is a psychiatrist, you must be joking, having students or a male doctor forced on you can lead to major and lifelong psychological damage. It shows women are still viewed by some/many as lumps of meat who make life difficult for the precious medical profession when they won’t co-operate, how dare we value our bodily privacy and dignity…they should post their names so we know who to avoid and it’s telling these comments didn’t trigger an avalanche of protest. Typical solution too, find women who are totally powerless and use them, how do we bring Barbados to Australia?
I know the Women’s can’t guarantee a female doctor in L & D, and I imagine the same applies in other public hospitals, but these women can still refuse medical students.
Interesting when they or their partner give birth, it’s probably somewhere like Freemasons Private with no medical students, their doctor and respect for their privacy and dignity a given…such a double standard. Once again, those in the club and the rest of us. Public health care is not free anyway, Mr Dinosaur, we pay for it with our taxes.
• 9863 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 10, 2013 at 4:24 pm
Sorry, no disrespect intended, I should have said DR Dinsosaur…
• 9864 – Sue
Apr 10, 2013 at 7:27 pm
Good one Elizabeth – DR Dinosaur, yes indeed. Mary those well captured and revealing quotes had me seething, and I also appreciate your comeback in response to those triggering quotes Elizabeth. Also, the reference to the woman who committed suicide over the harms, that also had me reliving my own awful experiences and was very validating. I so appreciate this site and all commenters, words don’t really capture it.
Chrissy, well put:
“. . . to then imply that the woman has a ‘problem’ if she is not OK with this, to insinuate that only immature, abused or uneducated women object to this, is to my mind an underhand and unethical psychological manipulation of women at their most vulnerable.”
That comment deserved highlighting, thank you Chrissy. It really puts the focus back on the drs, the perpetrators, rather than put the focus on the victims – all the women who are being harmed by drs invasive exams and unnecessary exposure. Also, to call it medical “modesty” doesn’t capture it fully because it almost implies there is an issue with the patient – as in they are being “modest”. But in fact, the issue is more an assault on basic human rights. Does anyone feel okay about public stripping and being put on display? It is more a matter of assault and abuse, rather than “modesty”. People are being dehumanized, assaulted, degraded, humiliated, victimized, and more. These are practices used on prisoner of war, yet women are expected to go along with them. It is ludicrous and I’m so glad women and their informed significant others are beginning to take a stand. And yes Chrissy, you have captured how drs are attempting to put blame on the victims, rather than taking responsibility for their own inhumane practices.
Blogger 7:53 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9865 – Chrissy (UK)
Apr 11, 2013 at 11:23 am
Mary, the comments by this doctor are repulsive but do not surprise me.
I had two babies in the 1970s and this Dr Dinosaur sounds exactly like the doctors I encountered then. Brusque, arrogant and totally without any compassion towards ‘his’ patients.
This appalling excuse for a human being laments the ‘good old days’. The ‘good old days’ meant pregnant and labouring women had no choices about how and where their babies were born. I remember only too well what was called ‘Active Management of Labour’. It started off with an enema and shave, followed by being strapped to an external foetal monitor (or even worse, an internal one). Then came the breaking of the waters with the metal hook ‘to get your labour moving’. There was no walking around allowed, we were confined to a bed for the duration of our labour and woe betide you if you attempted to get out. Then there were the frequent vaginal exams performed by a variety of medical personnel, including student doctors. If you were labouring ‘too slowly’, an oxytocin drip would be administered and this often resulted in stronger and more painful contractions. For the delivery itself, the ‘stranded beetle’ position was the only one allowed. Delivering a baby flat on your back is like giving birth uphill. To cap it all off, the routine episiotomy was performed on pretty much every woman, whether she needed it or not. We had no say in any of this thanks to these control freak doctors, who were the Senior Obstetricians in hospitals and dictated the procedures and practices that the junior doctors and midwives had to follow.
I note Dr Dinosaur’s relish when during his student years, one woman was admonished (no doubt by the consultant in front of his group of students) and told that she should basically put up with anything they did to her as she was getting ‘free’ obstetric care. And the consultants made it very clear to both patients and midwives that they were to do a minimum of deliveries and exams ‘regardless of any other considerations’. Meaning of course that your psychological and mental health meant nothing whatsoever to these doctors . He then goes on to wish that RACOG ‘be given responsibility for determining a uniform undergraduate O&G curriculum across all medical schools in Australia, and the authority to enforce compliance from hospitals for minimum numbers of medical student deliveries’. Yes that’s right, he actually said ‘enforce compliance’. I really don’t want to contemplate how hospitals would enforce compliance on their patients. I wonder if his mentor was J Marion Sims.
I sincerely hope in the future that this type of archaic and reprehensible misogynist really does go the way of the dinosaur.
• 9866 – OverItAll (US)
Apr 11, 2013 at 2:46 pm
Off-topic: I’ve decided, due to lack of informed consent, to become a nurse-midwife so I can make birth control available without the unnecessary exams and be able to birth both at-home and in-hospitals without the exams. It’ll cost $20K for the midwifery program alone though and at least $10K for nursing. I’m doing it backwards though; midwife first then nursing. Maybe one day I’ll move on to NP.
A 50-y/o friend of mine had a serious medical problem a few days ago. She had a hyst at 25 due to severe endometriosis and scar tissue (completely her choice). She just had “bladder prolapse”. Her first mistake was going to a GYN, who did a complete pelvic, with pap smear, and breast exam. She’s also ordered a TON of hormone tests and CBC blood tests, but said surgery wasn’t needed (BTW, her bladder is in her vagina, she saw it which is why she went to dr!)… I don’t know how she did a pap since she has no cervix. Checking hormone levels seems unnecessary since she has no female organs. And she said her dr said she wanted to check hormone levels because she didn’t know why she had estrogen levels…the pit glands produce extremely slight levels of estrogen, as limited as my medical info may be, even I know that much. She’s also set to do a mammo and has demanded the thermal (she does have a history of breast cancer in her family and I’ve told her to get the BRCA test before the mammo). I asked her why she didn’t see a urologist first and she said she didn’t think about it. I’ve told her to SERIOUSLY question her doctor and bring a document of her research.
Only in women’s care would one have to deal with this crap!
• 9867 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 11, 2013 at 6:39 pm
Overitall, i wonder what these gyns scrap if there is no cervix? my grand mother was given a ao pap smear after she had d hre cervix removed. I asked her why they gave her a pap and she said well they left my overies so i thought the pap smear whould pick up voa overian cancer. I told her no its only for your cervix. she told me that she knew pap smears pick up soom any problems like infections and other cancer and that i didnt know ewhat i was talking about. I cant under stand why questions are not asked befor they do pap smears like are you a n vergin? do you have a cervix. instead it seems any body twih a vagina will do.
• 9868 – Hexanchus (male-US)
Apr 11, 2013 at 7:16 pm
Chrissy,
I’m not sure both quoted comments by Mary are from the same person, but the wording in the second quoted comment indicates that the person posting is female:
“Surely there must be a balance though. I am now a psychiatrist….(by the way I would never go through the public system to deliver as I would absolutely want a consultant, but I would have been very happy to have a medical student attend both of my deliveries in the private sector).”
• 9869 – Alice (Australia)
Apr 11, 2013 at 9:54 pm
Mary, thank you for quoting those doctors and showing us (again) the real nature on the “heath care” system.
If one of those doctors really thinks that Barbados’ approach is so much better, why don’t they move to live in Barbados and go to Barbados doctors when they are ill? I bet for their own health issues they prefer to go to the “wrong” medicine to have their rights respected; double-faced control freaks!
Chrissy, your description of the “good old” birth procedures are horrifying, but, sadly, I did hear similar stories from my older friends before. Any wonder that many daughters of those victims don’t want to have kids of their own! I know enough women deciding not to have kids only because they can’t imagine to psychologically survive the horrors of humiliation, coercion, disrespect and loss of control they will be put through by the medical profession during their pregnancy, labour and birth.
Blogger 7:54 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9870 – Alice (Australia)
Apr 11, 2013 at 9:57 pm
Another thing that really pisses me off are the statements that we have to put up with $hitty treatment if we want to use free medicine. There is no free medicine. Nothing is free. We pay for everything through our taxes!
• 9871 – OverItAll (US)
Apr 12, 2013 at 12:14 am
Kleigh: I’m guessing it was a “vaginal vault” specimen, which is totally unnecessary since she had her hyst for endometriosis (and she was done having kids since she already had 5 by 25). She’s never had cancer or “precancer”.
Vaginal cancer is extremely rare; Between 1988-2001, there were an average of 267 cases a YEAR, or 3471 cases in 13 years(SEER).
• 9872 – Sue
Apr 12, 2013 at 5:02 pm
As part of a Canadian news series called “Rate My Hospital”, CBC’s Fifth Estate has started a “Live Blog”. http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/ You don’t need to log in to leave a comment, just a user name. The lid is being blown off the lack of transparency in Canadian health care and hospitals. I’m beside myself with delight. Some real horror stories about “health care” are coming out.
And here’s the address to the response from Canadian province’s reactions to CBC’s efforts to collect information (no surprise). http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/ratemyhospital/story/2013/04/09/hospitals-foi-request-cbc.html
• 9873 – Sue
Apr 12, 2013 at 6:37 pm
Christopher Rose you rock, thank you.
• 9874 – Diane (US)
Apr 13, 2013 at 12:32 am
It’s unreal that doctors would think that they are entitled to use patients as live teaching props, regardless of the patients’ consent or comfort level. Absolutely unreal. It really does show how little these doctors think of their patients.
What’s also interesting is the way this is handled in labor and delivery vs. other specialties. I don’t think anyone would EVER think of asking a demanding that a patient should allow a resident or student to do their heart or orthopedic procedures. Delivering a baby is dangerous for both mother and child, and far more intimate, and yet women are apparently expected to cheerfully allow any and everyone to assist.
For other specialties: many, if not most, medical schools in the USA and some other countries use paid actors and paid volunteer patients in their teaching. I did one such gig when I was in college – I was a patient at an orthopedic clinic and they asked if I would be willing to volunteer, for a stipend, for one of their residents’ exams. The resident was NOT actually treating me. They had to take a case history, do a brief exam of my injury, make a recommendation and defend their observations to the doctors in the room.
Three key points there: a) I was asked; b) the resident wasn’t ACTUALLY treating me or doing anything invasive; c) I was paid.
I can’t see how it should be any different in the delivery wards or hospitals. If they want to use the patients as teaching tools, they should be getting full consent and paying them for the privilege. Frankly if Heaven forbid I’m in a hospital for some reason, I’m not paying through the nose for hospital fees to be a free teaching prop for kid doctors.
Blogger 7:55 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9875 – Sue
Apr 13, 2013 at 2:07 am
The CBC live blog is closed to comments now but the archive is available. So many people were telling their stories, the comments were coming in faster than I could read them. Horror stories of people dying in hospital due to long ER wait time, medical/surgical errors, infection, and neglect. I didn’t get a chance to contribute much, just a couple comments related to medical sexual misconduct and pap test coercion. Overall, most people commenting were clearly fed up with the health care system and its lack of transparency and accountability.
• 9876 – Mary
Apr 14, 2013 at 12:27 am
Yes Hex I didn’t make it clear, but the comments were from two different doctors. What a pig of a doctor that first one is. I hope he comes across his words being repeated here and commented on.
• 9877 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 15, 2013 at 12:17 am
Graeme, Over at Sue’s site there is a list of places (provided by Torrance) that provide the Pill without prescription. (in case your wife’s GP gives her a hard time)
I’ve still to post notes from Day 2 of the Conference, I took pages and pages of notes and have cut my post down twice now…I’ll post the final draft in a day or two.
We have so many doctors who dismiss HPV testing because of our “great” cervical screening program. How could you praise a program that screens 95% of women aged 30 to 60 who are not even at risk and cannot benefit from pap tests? So many of these poor women get caught up in day procedure. It’s cruel…why don’t we care about these women? We don’t give them a second thought.
It’s inefficient as well and misses too many of these rare cancers. It seems to me they don’t want to make too many changes and wish to work around the current structure and so might favour doubling up, HPV and pap tests for everyone (or those over 24) or just stay with pap testing and do HPV tests on the abnormal pap test women.
Neither is in the interests of women, it’s either laziness and/or protecting profits, and shows they have zero concern about the vast majority of women who can’t benefit from pap testing, but are currently exposed to high risk, not to mention putting them through unnecessary invasive testing and potentially damaging over-treatment.
I saw this in Australian Doctor,
” Dr Terri Foran, a Sydney sexual health physician, said the test (HPV) was expensive and its economic viability uncertain.
Its application in Australia, which has a successful screening program, is somewhat limited,” she said.”
I couldn’t disagree more…of course, the Dutch have no problem using HPV testing and in the most effective way. They’re moving though from a 6-7 pap test program and much lower referral rates…whereas we’re still stuck with serious over-screening and huge over-treatment rates. It shows IMO, the focus here is not women’s health. Hopefully, more women will refuse to test forcing them to make some changes that actually benefit women.
Over it all, you’d be a great midwife/NP, we need more informed women in the profession who also, care about and respect women. We’re competent adults, not mere bodies or targets.
• 9878 – Graeme NZ
Apr 15, 2013 at 3:53 am
Ok thanks Elizabeth. I think I have found her blog and a small list but I do not see the New Zealand one she has used? Getting my wife to go to the GP is a problem. She keeps making excuses and I cant really blame her. But with me getting hip replaced she needs to regulate her cycles. When she is washed out a week can go by with her really way down and weak.
•
• 9879 – Torrance * Connecticut, U.S.A.
Apr 15, 2013 at 10:58 am
Graeme, here is the link I’ve used twice. http://www.inhousepharmacy-europe.com/c-15-Contraceptives.aspx
http://www.medsmex.com sells 12+ types of birth control pills; just have your wife look for the chemical name of ethinyl-estradiol.
Blogger 7:56 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9880 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 16, 2013 at 9:05 am
Graeme, Do you know if the pill is tied to birth control there? It might be the reson why your wifes is puting off going. they might hound her about paps or refuse her the pill untill she agres to have one. Its terible hear in the states. I think its a crime.
• 9881 – Graeme NZ
Apr 16, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Yes Kleigh that is exactly what she is worried about.
Torrance I got a nice email back from that pharmacy saying they regret they cannot send to NZ because NZ customs seizes and destroys anything they send. They have obviously had experience of this. I am sure many parcels do get through but there is a risk. 3 months supply at their prices is around US$$100.
• 9882 – Graeme NZ
Apr 16, 2013 at 2:03 pm
Torrance am trying the medmex site now.
• 9883 – OverItAll (US)
Apr 16, 2013 at 2:38 pm
Graeme: I use webchemist 24 dot net or at least I would if I wasn’t still bf’ing. It is Canadian. Almost a full years’ supply is only $96 (compared to the $2K plus copays/tests/exams)! I don’t blame your wife either; I avoid doctors at all cost and google homeopathic treatments. Here’s a site to help your wife: Regulate Period Naturally http://www.theadventurouswriter.com/blogbaby/8-natural-ways-to-regulate-your-period
• 9884 – Mary
Apr 16, 2013 at 2:55 pm
Graeme if your wife has a problem getting the pill she could try using Tranexamic acid. It cuts down the flow quite substantially.
Blogger 7:57 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9885 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 16, 2013 at 7:35 pm
The Kevin MD site has another interesting article by a female doctor, she’s helping a male gynecologist attract more patients. What things are important to women? Good communication etc
Jean has already posted and so have I, the bottom line is some women will never feel comfortable with a male gynecologist, end of story. If they can’t attract enough business, so be it…it concerns me they may end up in places where women have no choice of doctor, like the military and labour and delivery. I really feel uncomfortable with male doctors/midwives etc who are happy to push themselves on women or shout discrimination. If women are uncomfortable with a male midwife etc, that should be accepted without argument. I recall the male gyn’s chatting about discrimination on the Ob-Gyn.net site and one saying he could always get work in areas where women have no choice of doctor.
I think that attitude is very concerning…they were also, annoyed that their older patients were asking for recommendations for female gyn’s for their daughters. Discrimination, they shouted…no, women have a choice now, whether they like it or not. It shows they don’t get it, this is not about them, but us.
• 9886 – Graeme NZ
Apr 16, 2013 at 8:14 pm
Thanks Mary but I have checked and this medicine is also only available on a doctors prescription. Anyway my wife needs to at least see the doctor and try for the provera medicine. If there are too many barriiers then we can look elsewhere. In NZ if you dig your toes in the doctors normally back off.
• 9887 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 16, 2013 at 9:20 pm
Graeme, it seems the NZ authorities have made it as hard as possible for women to access the Pill on line without a script.
I know some doctors bully women and the consult room is their turf, perhaps, it might help if you accompanied your wife to the doctor. Doctors back off quickly when they’re faced with an informed woman or if the woman refuses and gets up to leave, they know they can’t deny women the Pill because they decline a pap test. So it’s a try-on…
Women shouldn’t have to fight off cancer screening when they want medical advice/care.
(I know the States is different and incredibly, doctors are quite happy to let you leave empty-handed if you don’t submit to their demands)
• 9888 – Diane (US)
Apr 16, 2013 at 11:09 pm
You know, I thought of another area where this comes up, but where patients’ decisions are respected: massage therapy.
I get deep tissue massages on my back for my orthopaedic injuries and whenever I book, they ALWAYS, ALWAYS ask if I want a male or female therapist. They ask ME. There is NEVER an argument about the gender I choose (female). They know that if a patient has the right to decide who touches them.
It’s a pity medicine hasn’t picked up the program on this yet.
• 9889 – Graeme NZ
Apr 17, 2013 at 5:03 am
My doc suggsted a blood test a while back which I declined. since then over the period and again today I have been called by different nurses to make an appoitment. I was quite terse with the nurse today and basically said i have too many other things going on eg hip replacement etc to worry about a blood test for cholestrol. I have to say this has given me some insight into what women have to go through. the nurse said she would schedule the test for after i had my hip done. she had all the answers! When you decline they jut ignore you. It really peeves me off.
Blogger 7:57 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9890 – JeanArt
Apr 17, 2013 at 5:47 am
Good point, Diane. When you think about it, medicine is the only profession that sells its service as “gender neutral”. In other words, patients (i.e. customers) are supposed to accept either gender for any and all medical care and be grateful for it. They are all “professionals”, it is just another body part to them, etc. If it is just another body part then why are we required to cover our breasts and genitals in every other setting? It is true, at least here in the U.S. that we can choose the gender of our doctor but when and if you have to go into the hospital, for surgery, or into any other area for testing, etc. you are not given the choice of gender for any care you receive. I don’t see things ever changing in this respect until people start speaking up, which is unlikely as most have just accepted this as standard and do not question it.
• 9891 – Alice (Australia)
Apr 17, 2013 at 7:01 am
JeanArt, exactly! There are same gender airport security searches, same gender police guards in detention, same gender toilet cleaners, same gender fitting room assistants in department stores, same gender sport clubs…. In all those places and situations it is absolutely normal and reasonable to have same gender staff around. Yet in hospitals and medical centres, where people are required to strip, submit to intimate and invasive examinations and even have their internal organs exposed, same gender care is suddenly inappropriate or impossible!!! Where is the logic and consistency?
No one would argue if a woman declines to be searched by a male airport security, even with all her clothes on. Yet she is forced to be happy with a male doctor to shove his hands into her vagina! No other profession is exempt, only medical workers are “special”. Social norms suddenly turn upside down just because someone sat in a medical school for a few years. Are those medical schools some kind of saint-making factories? I doubt. If someone is happy with their opposite gender doctor – so be it. But the ones who want to have same gender medical care shouldn’t be denied it or treated like they are stupid, immature, have abusive partners or had violent childhood. That’s simply insulting.
• 9892 – Torrance * Connecticut, U.S.A.
Apr 17, 2013 at 7:28 am
Graeme, sorry you couldn’t use that website link I gave you; they are easy for me to order from, but the birth control pills are exorbitantly expensive.
As for the source I placed all my hopes in, during Wintertime, they claimed there was a postal strike in India and I thought the entire thing sounded bogus so I asked for a full refund, instead, and the money arrived in a week. I just couldn’t take a chance with so much money and an iffy organization I’d never purchased from before. So it’s back to the drawing board to stockpile the remaining birth control pills I need; at least I have enough onhand to last me until I’m 50.
• 9893 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 17, 2013 at 8:53 pm
A question for all of you:
What do you think of this post? (that appears over at the Kevin MD site)
“My children’s pediatrician is a female. At what age do you suggest I start demanding that she always have a male chaperone present when she examines my son? Or, do you think it would be more effective for me to teach both my son and my daughter that their doctor is there to aid them, and for me to try to use reason and understanding to help them past any feelings of awkwardness or embarrassment as they come up?”
Isn’t this denying/dismissing a natural and normal feeling that many of us share? Isn’t this grooming your children to suppress these feelings and accept opposite gender care? I certainly don’t believe I need anyone to help me “get over” my choice of doctor, it’s my business and my choice.
It reminds me of the doctors who say bring your daughter in early and get her “used” to these exams. How convenient for the medical profession?
• 9894 – Mary
Apr 17, 2013 at 9:44 pm
Thats’s certainly not how I’m bringing up my daughter, Elizabeth. The number one thing to teach your child is to TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS, not a person in a white coat. So if the child is being abused and lets admit some of this abuse can be very subtle, such as “accidently” brushing a breast for example, this silly woman is telling her child to ignore that feeling and rationalise that it is a doctor and they are incapable of sexual misconduct?
Blogger 7:58 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9895 – Diane (US)
Apr 17, 2013 at 11:39 pm
I agree with Mary. 100%. Frankly there’s no reason for a doctor to examine a child without the parent present to start, which should knock out the need for a “chaperone.”
If a kid has a bad feeling about a doctor or feels uncomfortable around them, that should be heeded, as well.
• 9896 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 18, 2013 at 12:03 am
Yes, it made me uncomfortable, sort of suggesting these feelings are not valid, we need help to “get over them”…which of course, has been the way this whole issue of opposite gender care has always been handled, WE have the problem.
I came across an interesting blog by a Scottish doctor who makes a lot of sense. He has some sensible things to say about cholesterol and the widespread use of statins and breast screening. Dr Malcolm Kendrick is his name and he wrote, “The Great Cholesterol Con”.
• 9897 – Mary
Apr 18, 2013 at 12:22 am
Actually it reminded me of the someone who spoke to media about being abused by a Catholic priest. He said he didn’t tell his mother because she wouldn’t have believed that a priest would do such a thing. You would think that we have learnt from the huge scandal in the church and sexual abuse that ANYONE is capable of it regardless of occupation.
• 9898 – Chrissy (UK)
Apr 18, 2013 at 1:15 am
I wonder what kind of ‘reasoning’ this mother would use to dismiss her children’s viewpoint. Feelings of embarrassment and humiliation cannot be switched on and off at will. This kind of ‘reasoning’ just shuts down dialogue and forces the child to internalise their feelings and reactions. In effect, it makes it the child’s problem, not the mother’s or the doctor’s. It would be kinder to listen to the child’s viewpoint and look for a doctor that the child is comfortable with.
• 9899 – JeanArt
Apr 18, 2013 at 6:14 am
Elizabeth: I noticed your comment on the Kevin MD website regarding colonoscopy. I just have to tell you that I think you are dead on and I can’t agree with you more. I am really glad that you (and others), few as they may be, are willing to get out there and voice their well-researched opinions. We so seldom get any balanced information about anything medical, especially when it comes to that sacred cow, cancer screening. This is glaringly obvious when they talk about colonoscopies and their value. You NEVER see information on how the vast majority of polyps (especially the small ones which are the most common ones removed) will never progress to cancer. It’s almost like they don’t want to give you that information because they are afraid a lot of people would decide to forgo the exam; a loss of revenue. Here in the States the doctors really jumped on the colonoscopy bandwagon when Katie Couric had one on national tv due to the death of her husband from colon cancer. Before that event you rarely heard such a strong promotion of colonocopies. Now all the gastro doctors are probably quite happy with the big increase in their business. Just more fear mongering in my opionion. Actually, Katie Couric’s husband developed colon cancer in his 40s; much younger than the recommended screening age of 50. So, perhaps he had some genetic tendency for the disease. He wouldn’t have benefitted from the 50 year-old colonoscopy guideline one way or the other. I am almost surprised that they didn’t start promoting screening at 40 because of that! Anyways, just blowing off steam. Keep up the good work!
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• 9900 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 18, 2013 at 2:28 pm
JeanArt, My grandmother was told she has “pre cancer plops” they called herto come in this year and she never went in bc of the tramtic experance she had a few years back when she was sedated the insturment brok off inside her and she said she does remember extream pain and cussing out the doctor. well now she really geting feble and does not feel like going for the procedger. they stoped calling her after a few faild attempts to get her in. but now she is saying she thinks she should go back because they told her the polops she has can turn in to caner. I looked this up and it schoked me that almot all people will have polops when they get older and only a very few of those will turn into cancer. this is never told to anyone. and my boyfriends father is convenced he too has pre cancer. its so clear they do not have the patents best intersts. and these two both have excelnt helth insuerance and it pays for all the costs. l
• 9901 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 19, 2013 at 3:40 pm
Jean, we have to blow off steam sometimes, the situation is so frustrating and unfair. (and bad for our health) The medical profession are in a unique position to cause harm because they have a veneer of respectability, many people trust them and then we find (although some will never see or accept it) that they’re comfortable risking our health and lives to maximize profits. There are so many factors at play…not many are in our interests.
It’s funny the things that still get to me…I can cope with women calling me an anti-vaxxer, but there are still so many doctors who can’t see what we’re complaining about or scoff at us. I posted on the Australian Doctor site pointing out our program is harmful, raising our huge over-treatment rates, comparing it to the Dutch program and then I mention that over-screening shows a cavalier disregard for our bodily privacy.
I get a response from a male, possibly a doctor, who flips off my post with, “you have to wonder about an argument based on a cavalier disregard for bodily privacy”.
Now quite clearly my post was not “based” on that factor, but it IS a factor, and it’s so often forgotten or dismissed. I’ve had similar comments to that and it says to me some, perhaps many, don’t see the pap test as invasive and our bodily privacy (and health) is unimportant. I guess we’re supposed to get “used” to whatever they say should be “done” to our bodies, even when it’s unnecessary and risks our health, and possibly our lives.
Anyway, thanks for your posts, I love to get to an article and find a familiar name. I especially enjoyed your post to an article written by the female gyn over at Kevin MD. It must irk her, not being able to delete our posts. A few women have had trouble on her blog, deleting posts and she closed a thread she didn’t like…women talking about the need for pap tests, how dare they question the sacred cow of medicine? Keeping women in the dark will get harder and harder. I can feel that more women are questioning the whole rotten business.
kleigh, I think all the pre-cancer cells that are removed from the cervix fall into the same category as pre-cancer polyps, most won’t become cancerous. Already I know quite a few people who’ve had one or more polyps removed, some think it would have become cancerous, others were told it “might”…but no one gives these people real numbers. The highest estimate I’ve found is 3%…97% of polyps never progress. Now removal of these polyps must expose us to infection, the risk of bleeding, trauma to the bowel wall, is this related to diverticulitis and IBS? I read an article that showed an increase in these conditions in screened people. I’ve also read it’s not good to strip out the bowel.
We know in cervical screening almost all treatments amount to over-treatment…77% risk of referral for a cancer that affects 0.65% of women.
Yet HPV primary testing would rule most of these women out of treatment. We can no longer say these cells “might” become cancerous when a simple HPV test would tell us whether that’s a possibility. If you’re HPV+ and have an abnormal pap test, then yes, these cells “might” become cancerous. This should be something fewer than 5% of women hear…the 5% who test HPV+ and are aged 30 or older.
So why do we continue with all of this over-treatment on women who are likely to be HPV-?
It makes no sense from a healthcare point of view.
Jean, Dr Oz and his “bowel cancer scare”…have I missed something or did he just have a pre-cancerous polyp removed like many other people? The chance it would progress…about 3%
The article I read made it sound like the death bell was ringing. All of this scares people though and they say it raises awareness, I think it scares and often, misleads us, but I guess that’s good for business.
• 9902 – Sue
Apr 20, 2013 at 12:38 am
Elizabeth you said the magic words: “good for business”. Anything that is good for business is given the thumbs up, even if the business leads to unnecessary harm it seems. I’ve read on two different sites that women’s health care generates 17 billion dollars in revenue in the U.S. I’ve searched for the original source for this number but can’t find it, although I don’t doubt it is true. Women’s bodies generate huge profits, especially our reproductive organs. Also cesarean sections, drs can charge far more money for a surgical procedure than they can for a vaginal birth. Although I think you are right when you said you feel more women are questioning the whole rotten business. Something I have noticed is the fear mongering for STD’s has been pumping up, as well as some articles targeting men and prostate screening are beginning to appear. Most likely to fill in gaps that are getting bigger with fewer women agreeing to paps.
• 9903 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 20, 2013 at 9:54 am
Sue, I think the reason why there is such a heavy push for woman to be tested for stds vs men is they can charge extra for doing a pelvic exam. I notice woman are hounded about stds more than men and told they cant trust there partner, and that there firtility is in danger. they even push virgins to get tested . not to be gross but when the doctor is doing a pelvic on a woman its like a free for all. they can do a pap smear and charge extra. its so sick. I hate the control these people have over woman. I read about a woman who went to the doctor for leg cramps and was pushed to test for stds and told the doctor no and at the end he made a appt. for her after she told him not to.
• 9904 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 20, 2013 at 6:49 pm
Women are also more likely to respond to the scare campaigns and awareness drives and there are more opportunities to get to and coerce women. Many women see GPs for the Pill, pre-natal care, with their children etc
I saw some research a few years back that concluded the “measures” used to get women into screening, did not work with men. It was recognised very quickly that they couldn’t get enough men to agree (or force them into) rectal exams and so the PSA test appeared fairly quickly. (neither is recommended anymore)
I heard a number of doctors say that men found the routine rectal exam unacceptable and something else should be offered, it’s different with women, they’re “used” to these exams because they have pap tests most of their adult life and they have babies.
So the thinking is totally different, pap tests are presented as something we must do…add childbirth and we no longer mind these exams. We’re been told…that’s how we should feel. If that’s not the case, WE have a problem and we’re attacked, judged and targeted, we’re the non-compliant, and they find new ways of getting us screened…scare campaigns, target payments and some doctors still link the Pill to pap testing. Glen Street Medical Clinic in WA have it on their website, “women on the Pill need pap tests and blood pressure checks”. I made a complaint, but haven’t heard anything yet, and the statement remains on their site. The complete lack of respect for proper ethical standards and the law where women are concerned is disgraceful.
Blogger 7:59 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9905 – Mary
Apr 20, 2013 at 10:54 pm
Exactly Elizabeth.Look at the reaction to Dr McCartney saying she won’t have a pap. Nurses were saying she should be reported. For what? These sorts of women act like children dobbing in the naughty person.I wish these women would grow up and realise that women have rights too. But I’ll always maintain that these women are jealous that some women don’t go through these invasive tests and it angers them. Because why should somebody else care what tests another person chooses to do or not? Why is it any of their business? There’s way too much invasion of privacy in women’s health.
By the way, I just read a headline that said men only need 3 PSA tests in their lifetime. Imagine them saying women only need 3 pap tests.
• 9906 – Mary
Apr 20, 2013 at 10:59 pm
Graeme I was just thinking that if you are worried about customs, odering the pill from a UK pharmacy shouldn’t be a problem because it is actually prescibed by a doctor and they stick a sticker on it saying it’s been prescibed. Customs shouldn’t have a problem with that. But a word of warning, the doctor might have a problem if your wife is over 35, so I would suggest not admitting her real age to them.
• 9907 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 21, 2013 at 7:51 am
Mary, I agree it seems woman do get jealus of those who openly do not test. I got that feeling from the female nurse who got snappy with me when she found out that I had not been having paps. I noticed she seemed to take it a little personal. When I told the other two male nurses my meadical history and that I did not have pap smears, they didnt bat an eye. just wrote it down and went on with the visit. were as the woman nurse turned on me like a dog with rabies. If A woman takes her child to a gp that is really unprofestional of the doctor to use the childs visit to discus the mothers health and her haveing pap smears. I cant belive they whould do that. I bet alot of woman there have the dad take the kids so they dont have to deal with paps being pushed.
• 9908 – ADM (Canada)
Apr 21, 2013 at 1:14 pm
Interesting article about mammograms and paps. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/04/21/breast-health-tips.aspx?e_cid=20130421_SNL_Art_1&utm_source=snl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20130421
• 9909 – ADM (Canada)
Apr 21, 2013 at 1:15 pm
Sorry the article is about breast cancer and mammograms.
Blogger 8:06 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9910 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 21, 2013 at 8:17 pm
Mary, I’ve noticed the reaction when you say you don’t have pap tests verges on hysteria or disbelief, you can hear the gasps…what?
Yet if you say you don’t have bowel screening, ho hum, who cares…which shows it’s irrational, bowel cancer is a lot more likely than cervical cancer.
I do think there is some resentment there…on one US forum the response to my non-screening status was, “Are you crazy? Are you even a woman?”….how could a sane woman say such things?
The most concern is reserved for pap tests, then mammograms and there seems to be little concern about bowel and lung cancer or heart disease.
That’s a really interesting link, ADM. I might write to Dr Northrup, she makes sense, although I see she still recommends pap tests. When she feels strongly about treating the female body in a positive and healthy way, not as pre-disease, she should embrace HPV self-testing/primary testing and warn women about over-screening and excess with cervical screening. I wonder what she has to say about routine pelvic exams or holding the Pill until women submit to pap testing etc…
You can hardly claim to be holistic and focus on the healthy female body if you practice excess and medical coercion.
• 9911 – Anny
Apr 22, 2013 at 12:00 am
I keep coming back to this blog to read new comments. It is fantastic to hear the people who are doing their own research and able to question the generally accepted system! Thanks everyone. You do make a big difference in this world!
I also wanted to ask if anyone knows anything about Jacqui. I haven’t seen any comments from her for quite a while. I hope she is ok.
• 9912 – Graeme NZ
Apr 22, 2013 at 1:47 am
Mary thanks for that info. Well I am having my hip replacement…number 4…on 30 April. I am very nervous. My wife is seeing the doctor on Wednesday. If she has no joy then we will buy provera online. She is dead against any screening. This will be a test for our doctor as well in fact. I hope she passes.
• 9913 – JeanArt
Apr 22, 2013 at 6:14 am
Elizabeth:
Thanks for your comments. About Dr. Oz and his “cancer scare”: he had a colonoscopy on air and they found 1 small benign (pre-cancerous) polyp. These are actually very common and do not constitute a “cancer scare”. My thoughts are that he just wanted to maximize his viewing audience (and his pocketbook) and also wanted to basically scare people into having this exam. And that kind of stuff works big time here in the US. I have lost all respect for him, what little I did have. If you want a more balanced opinion about his experience you can google “Hype Alert: Dr. Oz Colonoscopy”. But he has generated such a huge following that everyone takes his word as gospel. Actually, with him on tv for an hour, 5 days a week it has just gotten to be overkill. He has milked every medical subject to the max just to fill air time and so much of it is just pure bull. I understand what you are saying about the focus on pap smears when cervical cancer is fairly rare and not as much focus on colon cancer, which is more common, but that is changing at least here in the US. The medical and media machine have convinced all of us 50 and older that we MUST have a colonoscopy and many have jumped on that bandwagon. My best friend, who doesn’t do any of this screening stuff, says one of her friends is constantly bugging all her friends to get a colonoscopy. And my husband went to a walk-in clinic for a wasp sting and the doctor asked him if he had had a colonoscopy. It is happening to some extent here in the US just like the push for mammograms and paps. And it is difficult to find like minded people; most are very pro-screening. I never let it sway me, though. I just do not want to live a life under constant medical surveillance and don’t see the benefit of it.
• 9914 – Marìa
Apr 22, 2013 at 2:16 pm
Colonoscopies shouldn’t be taken lightly!!! Unlike Paps and Mammograms they require heavy anesthesia, and they pass that thick thing through your a**!
Blogger 8:07 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9915 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 22, 2013 at 7:34 pm
“I just do not want to live a life under constant medical surveillance and don’t see the benefit of it”
That sums it up for me too, Jean. Aside from the very real risk, who wants to spend their life in waiting rooms, having exams, tests, scans, re-tests, biopsies, surgery etc? It’s stressful stuff and no life. IMO, it’s an unhealthy way to think and live.
I think stress/anxiety/fear/trauma all affect our health and well-being, it’s well known that screening tests often cause anxiety, we’re focused on cancer, we’re anxious about the process and the result, if we get a call-back, some/many people suffer badly – sleepless nights, no appetite, fear, high emotion etc
I know women who count down the months and start to feel anxious as the next pap test “due date” approaches, we’re told all of this is worth it for the benefit. Really?
I don’t think so. Hopefully, more women will start to see that there are no due dates, it’s all up to us and yes, we can say no.
I’ve never been due or overdue for a pap test because I don’t have them.
I had a bit of fun with a screening zealot relative recently, (I don’t see much of her; it seems most women just assume other women have pap tests) she asked me if I’d ever been overdue for a pap test. (she’s panicking because she’s overdue, it’s been 2 years and 2 months…gasp!) I confidently declared to the table that I’d never been overdue for a pap test. She congratulated me while the rest of the table (my sisters and a close friend) smiled knowingly. I thought we might have to dash her to casualty when my true status, “informed non-screener” was mentioned. It throws many women, “you’re an educated and professional woman, you’re supposed to set an example for others” and my response, “I hope that’s what I’m doing”. That’s not telling women what to do, I’ll leave that to Breast Screen and Papscreen, it’s warning, offering real information and support. We need to do a lot more of that, I hate the way women so often turn on each other and on this topic IMO, it’s been encouraged by the system. “Get the women you love screened”, the “screened and un-screened”, “non-compliant”, hard-to-reach groups etc…that sort of manipulative and inappropriate language.
I thought we might lose her as my younger sister and friend also, stated they no longer have pap tests. (both had a traumatic experience with over-treatment, cone biopsies) My older sister (57) has also, never had a pap test, another one for the Smithsonian.
When women hear you’ve never had a pap test and you’re in your 50s, you see astonishment, confusion, horror…many women have never considered pap tests an option, something they could reasonably refuse. Many won’t accept you’re acting reasonably, “why don’t you find a nice lady doctor?”, “Aren’t you afraid of getting cancer?” and will never accept real information. Others are left confused and a few end up angry that they’ve been frogmarched into this exam for decades. (and often a biopsy or “treatment”)
I want every woman to know she doesn’t have to lead a medicalized life, all of this stuff is elective. (and IMO, most of it is unnecessary and risks our health, happiness and lives)
Dr Northrup talks about loving our bodies, that jumped out at me. IMO, part of that love is protecting our symptom-free body from women’s “healthcare”. Protecting our bodies, health, lives, boundaries, our emotional health…the complete package. Dr Northrup is spot-on when she says our breasts are not pre-disease hanging off our chests. IMO, most of the female body is viewed that way. This sort of warped thinking needs to be challenged and changed.
• 9916 – Torrance * Connecticut, U.S.A.
Apr 23, 2013 at 8:31 am
Elizabeth, you oughta see the looks I get when I hear the same questions, such as: “It’s just another part of your body. Aren’t you afraid of getting Cancer?” I say: “No. I don’t care if I get Cancer. I don’t care if I live or die. Doctors do not cure anybody; they can all go to Hell!” The looks and screaming which commence are awful and I shrug and refuse to discuss the topic further.
• 9917 – Sue
Apr 23, 2013 at 4:43 pm
Elizabeth there is a commenter over on my site asking you to write a book. She is making excellent points, and I second the notion. A book could really help the cause – I can see the headlines now as you get interviewed for the debut, how wonderful that would be. I think though that you have in a sense already written a book, and in the most effective way possible. If not for your wise, informative, truthful, wonderful, and well placed comments on pertinent sites I and many other women might still be papping and might be irreparably harmed. And same goes for this site and all commenters here, your comments and this site have been a soul saver. The world hadn’t been ready for a book on this topic, but it might be ready for one now.
Torrance good for you. I actually have started talking about it more recently as I no longer have the same fears I once did. There has been a shift of some kind and I’m starting to feel more secure. I still have the feeling as if I’m being hunted for my reproductive organs, but I now feel more in control and safe.
• 9918 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 23, 2013 at 6:40 pm
All the obsestion with finding cancer in woman privates never made any since to me. you can can get cancer anywere in your body. why dont they screen for other none gyn cancers if there so concerned. No one hounds woman about screening for skin cancer even tho it way more common. there is an obssetion with the femaile body and what I do not get is if doctors say they are scared of being sued if they do not push paps on every woman who walks in the door yet there is also a screening for skin cancer but you dont see them pushing that for liabilty or mens cancer screening. I really think its bc they can charge so much for a pelvic exam and theres no money in other cancers.
• 9919 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 23, 2013 at 6:47 pm
And Torrance. thank you for the compliment earlier. about being a good daughter. And I agree with you. If I did have a pap smear and it came up abnormal you think I am going to spread my legs and let them bbq my cervix with no pain meadication I think not. and chemo is cruel and inhuman. These people only know what they have been spon feed by there doctors. of course they have no idea what a abnormal pap smear could lead too. its doctors to blame.
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• 9920 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 23, 2013 at 6:53 pm
I forgot to add thats why I whould never agree to have a pap smear.
• 9921 – Mary
Apr 23, 2013 at 10:24 pm
And Kleigh we all know how little doctors know. Specialists might know about their field (but gyns are inlined to lie to women anyway),but doing this medical science course makes me realise how medicine must be taught and it gives me no confidence in doctors. What I’m saying is we have tons and tons of info thrown at us in a short space of time, then we cram for exams and then we move on to the next topic(and forget mostly of what we’ve been taught). I could just imagine cervical cancer and pap smears being taught in about ten mintes of a lecture. So I am not going to have any faith in what a GP is going to say about cc (and who probably learnt it 20+ years ago), when they have barely touched the surface. Somebody like Elizabeth, who has been reading the medical literature for years has my vote of confidence rather than a GP. Of course, most people think we are mad because we do our own research.
• 9922 – OverItAll (US)
Apr 23, 2013 at 11:20 pm
Mary: When I was in MA/nursing, we never studied it. We went to the campus clinic (patients were usually homeless), picked up a speculum, pap kits and practiced once or twice on “dummies”. Months later, at the very end, we were told “If a male refuses, move on and ask later. If a female refuses ask her how she would feel lying in a bed explaining to her kids why mommy was too selfish for a pap smear”. That’s all we were told. We never went over breast exams. It was ALL paps. Of course, this was a crash-10-month-course, afterwards we’d go to a community college or university for a 3-years-of-study-in-1-year due to already being certified in MA (We were taught by a nurse, so we learned nursing, not the typical billing parts MAs go over). I left when the above quoted happened, just before state exams.
I agree! Elizabeth should definitely write a book!! At least an e-book, something filled with info that women could print and bring to their doctors.
I’m about to have a ton of links to pop in, but I’m working on a no-vax research for my baby’s doctor. Ugh.
• 9923 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 23, 2013 at 11:35 pm
Sue, I feel like I’ve written 50 books over the last 15 years or so, of course, the nice thing is that most of my posts are accepted these days. Up until about 5 years ago they were deleted or didn’t pass the moderators.
Thanks for the positive words, of course, some/many call me irresponsible for putting women “off” testing and Planned Parenthood for Arizona called my posts, “spam”.
This was my first clue all those years ago that something wasn’t right, the aggression and irrational comments that are generated when you post real information. They also, hate posts that challenge misinformation, critically examine/question the need/value of testing and mention informed consent & personal choice.
Why so defensive if it all stacks up?
IMO, being aggressive can be a defensive measure, warning you not to get too close, it usually means the statements being made are “unreliable”. (to put it politely) It’s a trigger to me to take a VERY close look.
BUT, if some women find our posts helpful, that’s enough for me.
It’s getting to individual women that will force change, you can’t take advantage, harm etc if women don’t show up or arrive prepared, knowing their rights. (and the facts) Your excellent blog is (and will into the future) helping huge numbers of women. Also, when women can get the Pill online that takes them out of harms way. (the online list is so important, a big thank you to you and Torrance)
It’s the coercion and targeted pressure during that consult that gets many/most women into testing. (not women making an informed decision to test)
Although I think the profession has a responsibility here, you couldn’t ethically recommend a teenager have a mammogram, I’d say the same applies with pap tests. All women should also be given the facts about routine pelvic, breast, rectal, recto-vaginal exams and visual inspections of the genitals. None of these exams are evidence based and carry risk.
Personally, if an exam is not evidence based and carries risk for no or dubious benefit, can it ever be clinically justified? In which case, shouldn’t the profession be required to educate women on the risks and explain why it’s not being done. I can’t see how any of these exams get over the line, but understand some women (especially older women) may want routine breast exams, but they should be asked to provide express informed consent. I know some argue that CBEs has not been thoroughly researched and may offer some benefit to older women. One large study compared 2 groups, one having CBEs, the other CBEs and mammograms, but they argue we need a large study comparing CBE and no CBE’s. (and all women having no mammograms or all of them having mammograms)
A friend decided against mammograms, but has CBEs. I’ve noticed her doctor is super careful because she doesn’t have mammograms, she seems to have a CBE every year, then sent for an ultrasound and has had two mammograms in the last 5 years to check “things” found on the ultrasound.
So it can be a slippery slope to excess and back to the very thing you’ve rejected. Until there is some decent and unbiased research on CBEs that’s passed by the NCI, no thanks.
I just posted at a blog called “The Sassy Pineapple”, this young woman is looking for answers after having LEEP for low grade dysplasia.
1. She shouldn’t have been tested at all and 2. No one in their right mind would treat low grade dysplasia.
I cannot understand why we allow doctors to keep harming young women. Surely someone in a position of power and influence has a conscience…apparently, not.
You can only imagine the damage that will be done in the name of healthcare when we’re doing cone biopsies and LEEP on very young women. What else lies in the future? How much cervix will be left when they’re 30?
• 9924 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 23, 2013 at 11:49 pm
By the way, a woman responded to one of my posts horrified at the suggestion we should wind back pap tests, or even better, offer HPV primary testing. She had small cell cervical cancer that was diagnosed after an abnormal pap test and says she tested HPV-
I did some research…of the 11,000 cases of cc in the States every year, around 100 are small cell. So, incredibly rare.
We don’t know what leads to this aggressive and fast growing cancer. Some say it’s related to HPV, others disagree.
Here is the kicker though, like adenocarcinoma, it’s usually missed by pap tests and is diagnosed after a woman presents with symptoms.
So, even if we pap tested every woman, every year, we’d still miss most of these super rare cases. We know false negative cases can falsely reassure and women may delay seeing a doctor for symptoms and receive a later diagnosis/poorer prognosis. So pap testing may disadvantage these women.
Population screening should be about saving as many women as possible while protecting those who can never benefit. (most women)
Moving to HPV primary testing we’d prevent more squamous cell and are likely to prevent some adenocarcinoma and possibly, small cell cancers. (if it turns out to be linked to HPV). We’d also, better protect vast numbers from unnecessary pap testing and over-treatment.
I’m pleased this woman was helped by a pap test, but screening can’t be fashioned around the super rare with the fervent hope it helps someone, while we miss others cancers (some squamous cell/most adenocarcinoma) and harm the masses.
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• 9925 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 24, 2013 at 1:09 am
Me again…just posted over at Kevin MD on a thread called, “Sexual harassment in the medical profession”. A lot of doctors read that site. It’s worth our time to keep an eye on the threads at that site.
• 9926 – Alice (Australia)
Apr 24, 2013 at 4:58 am
Here is an interesting article “What doctors won’t do”. http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/jan/19/what-doctors-wont-do
It turns out that doctors would rather avoid most things they are so happy to recommend to others and drag their patients into. Sadly, it doesn’t surprise me.
• 9927 – Maya Sherwin
Apr 24, 2013 at 3:24 pm
I’ve also had a very uncomfortable, and upsetting experience of a cervical smear, during which I was reduced to tears because of the pain and humiliation. Just got my papers for a screening, and not going to go. I agree, it’s invasive, and seems completely over the top.
• 9928 – Sue
Apr 25, 2013 at 1:02 pm
Maya welcome. In addition to the humiliation and pain there are many other valid reasons to not have smears. Every woman needs to make her own decisions and judgments, but I for one have decided to forgo paps. The evidence to support them is lacking, but the evidence pointing to the many harms (while difficult to find) is plentiful. I am glad for you that you found this forum.
Elizabeth I visited the site you suggested and read the article “Sexual harassment in the medical workplace must end”. It was excellent and began with the following:
“My first brush with sexual harassment began in the first two years of medical school. Some of the experiences I had were classic straightforward abuse and blatant discrimination and harassment scenarios, while others were a result of a traditionally male dominated profession practicing old fashioned… FULL ARTICLE AT Kevin M.D. Medical Blog”
But something extremely interesting is the fact the article has been deleted/removed. I have not been able to find it again, the page where it once was now reads “the page is missing” together with a “404 error”. Also, the comments that had been coming in attacking the author were plentiful and in some cases just plain viscous. Wow. I can understand why it was removed as it was making the commenters look extremely “unprofessional”.
• 9929 – Sue
Apr 25, 2013 at 1:14 pm
Alice I thoroughly enjoyed the article “what doctors won’t do”! Very revealing. And it didn’t surprise me either.
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• 9930 – Mary
Apr 25, 2013 at 2:47 pm
Sue I will never forget reading about male medical students brandishing about speculums at the bar of Sydney uni one day.Or reading about medical students (again male) playing with cadavers in a sexual way at the University of NSW.(Two of our top universities). And they wonder why women refuse medical students at their birth or whatever. I know they are going to be thinking unprofessional thoughts in their heads as they are way too immature.
• 9931 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 25, 2013 at 3:10 pm
I actually posted on that thread last night, a fairly confronting piece suggesting unhealthy attitudes toward women might start in medical school.
Re: the poor treatment of women and the medicalization of the symptom free female body, treating us as pre-disease. ACOG calling for girls aged 12-13 to present for annual checks: no clinical need. Routine pelvic exams – their continued promotion even though the clinical evidence is poor and they carry risk. Medical coercion to force women into these unnecessary exams and elective cancer screening. Over-screening and over-treatment, general excess. (using the HPV and pap test) Women being denied the Pill…how many women are harmed as a result of unplanned pregnancies, abortions etc?
The medicalization of pregnancy and childbirth. Hysterectomy rates etc…
I got a flurry of emails overnight, people responding to my post, but the article now appears to have been removed.
Interesting…when you put it all together, it’s undeniable, women are treated badly by the profession and we all know it’s bad medicine, it’s abusive.
• 9932 – Tanya
Apr 25, 2013 at 4:15 pm
I SO completely agree with all of you! I still feel like a criminal at times when I’ve found a way to avoid a pap. I would like to order my Pills online, but I am having trouble finding a company that ships to Canada. One company in India told me that our Customs laws are too strict. Any advice would be appreciated!
• 9933 – Mary
Apr 25, 2013 at 5:36 pm
Well that speaks volumes that it was removed Elizabeth.
• 9934 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 25, 2013 at 8:58 pm
Mary, yes, I think so…
Tanya, head over to Sue’s blog (just click on her name) and you’ll find a thread listing online pharmacies that will supply you with no script. No need to ask another doctor for the Pill. (unless you choose to) Torrance (who put the list together for Sue’s site) might be able to give you specific advice about Canada, she’s our online birth control expert, Pills with no coercion.
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• 9935 – Mary
Apr 25, 2013 at 11:38 pm
I was just reading some American online health journal that had an article about not screening before age 21 and not screening women with hysterectomies. The comments were all by doctors as this is a journal for professionals. Anyway some of the ignorant comments were scary. One doctor brought up the old cervcial cancer is rare in the developed world because of pap smears argument. Another said he just had an 18 year old with cin3 (obviously he doesn’t know that it is common in young women) and more gems. Most were signing their names with ob/gyn, not just GPs. Pretty scary the level of ignorance out there amongst the experts.
• 9936 – Alice (Australia)
Apr 26, 2013 at 4:28 am
Sue, I was able to retrieve the article from Goggle cache. Here it is:
Sexual harassment in the medical workplace must end
Shalena Garza, MD | Physician | April 23, 2013
I always wanted to go to medical school but I went to nursing school instead, graduating in 1996. I practiced critical care nursing for years and then finally went back to medical school and graduated in 2010. I am currently a resident physician in a program that treats women fairly. However, I previously resigned from a program that, I believe, discriminates against women, treating them with harsh evaluations and criticism. In retrospect, the contrast between the experiences of going to nursing school and going to medical school profoundly highlights the mistreatment of female medical students and residents.
My first brush with sexual harassment began in the first two years of medical school. Some of the experiences I had were classic straightforward abuse and blatant discrimination and harassment scenarios, while others were a result of a traditionally male dominated profession practicing old fashioned customs which have not been addressed by female advocates. The harassment and discrimination towards women in the medical education system remains systematic and many changes are needed regarding the regulation of the evaluation process and the criteria for selecting candidates into residency programs.
For example, there are practices which exclude women who have temporarily removed themselves from the training process due to pregnancy. When the woman returns to apply for a residency program she is automatically placed in a category which is less competitive or accumulates less “points†due to having taken some time off. For example, if I am given an interview invitation from a program and I decline that year due to pregnancy related issues, I should automatically be given a ‘rain check’ to interview with that program for the following year. I should not be denied an interview the following year for any reason, even if the reason is that the pool of candidates became more competitive. We will never be able to truly protect the pregnant woman from negative career repercussions due to pregnancy, if we do not close these loop holes!
Another interesting point relates to my unique perspective as a nurse. I have come to realize that the medical profession does not respect the nursing profession. For example, I believe that someone with merely paramedic or EMT experience would receive the same amount of credit in “points†as an experienced critical care nurse. Research experience is highly regarded with far more weight than years of experience as a critical care nurse. It really does not make very much sense since paramedic training and scope of practice is limited extensively compared to nursing, and research experience is most likely a narrow focus which does not prepare the person well for clinical management of patients. The only explanation that I can think of for this kind of lack of recognition is that nursing is a traditionally female dominated profession and to this day, lacks the recognition that it deserves. Only when medicine finally comes around to recognizing that a holistic preventative approach to illness is catastrophically missing in our training, will nursing possibly be given the respect that it deserves.
The evaluation process is a disaster and needs to be addressed with the ACGME (Accreditation Counsel for Graduate Medical Education), which provides evaluation guidelines for residency programs. The ACGME should be requiring 360 degree evaluations and should tightly regulate the manner in which certain subjects like ‘respect’ are evaluated. Perhaps the subject of respect should be eliminated all together. We all know that assertive females are not judged in the same manner as assertive males. A female who is quiet may be given a higher score in the area of ‘respect’ than a female who is more verbose. This problem is exacerbated by the incorporation of many different cultures that have different ideas of what it means for a woman to be ‘respectful’.
Medical students and residents are in vulnerable positions in which one act of retaliation can destroy a career. This is because the weight of letters of recommendations from senior program directors shifts a great deal of power into the hands of a select few. Many students and residents do not have the money to hire lawyers and are in fear of retaliation. Witnesses may also fear retaliation. Most think of the medical training process as something that is temporary and therefore simply try not to ‘rock the boat’ because they think it will be worth it in the end or that they are powerless to change. Others have suffered severe blows to their careers, like myself, and do not have the resources to fight against injustice. Pro-bono lawyers will only take cases which are clear cut and guaranteed a win. If we want to start making a change within the medical education system, we need the justice system behind us, or perhaps the media.
I think that after many sleepless nights, I have come to the realization that I will never be content with my purpose and contribution to society if I do not focus on changing the discriminatory environment of female medical students, residents and practicing physicians. There should be some protection for these women who have sacrificed so much to become doctors. The public needs to know about what goes on in the medical education system. The American people deserve better.
Shalena Garza is a physician.
Originally published on kevinmd.com
• 9937 – Anon
Apr 26, 2013 at 7:37 am
Oh no http://www.thedailyrash.com/katie-couric-to-undergo-on-air-pap-smear
• 9938 – Anon
Apr 26, 2013 at 7:40 am
Sorry, that is satire. You know, women’s bodies are so funny ha ha. Like this a-hole paragraph:
“We feel that many people will be very interested in watching Katie undergo a Pap smear on live television, so we’re not going to pussy foot around.†remarked CBS producer Ron Kleptomanning. “Believe you me, when folks get a glimpse of the Viewer Warning commercials we’re going to start showing next month, there won’t be any doubt that something worth seeing is coming to ABC daytime TV.â€
• 9939 – ChasUK
Apr 26, 2013 at 8:55 am
I have searched google today using the words “trial of male hpv tests” and guess what…..they have been done which means men can be tested! Found this on biol ttu Journal of Virological Methods 149 (2008) 136—143. This has made me furious as the responsibility seems to be pushed onto women alone, seriously what is the point of a woman going through a smear test, colposcopy/s followed by painful invasive treatments that are more likely to be over-treatment, to then go back to her male partner to be re-infected….and so the cycle continues or rather starts again, more treatment and then a hysterectomy….Oh yes I forgot….these internal organs of ours are disposable…..apparantly! Sorry but I needed to vent again and I know this is the place to visit for that. Elizabeth I did try posting after your trip to the Evidence Live but my comment was rejected for some reason? Just wanted to thank you for your reporting on that conference, very interesting indeed. Thanks again for putting yourself out there for further research, so appreciated. Thank you everyone. Hope this gets through as the preview is only showing me 2 lines?
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• 9940 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 26, 2013 at 8:59 am
Katie Curic. also said she took her teenage daughter to the gyno. She seems obsessed with screening after her husband died.
• 9941 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 26, 2013 at 9:02 am
Chas it has to do with money. They cant do leep and cut on a mens penis. And they know men whould never agree. But its okay to hurt woman.
• 9942 – Sue
Apr 26, 2013 at 4:18 pm
Mary in my opinion many of those immature male medical students never do become “mature”. Also from the sounds of it female medical students suffer sexual harassment and it is covered up just like it is in regards to female patients.
Alice I laughed when I saw your successful recovery of the article. Good on you! Now we can see what had been deleted, and it doesn’t look too good for the profession now does it. Women certainly aren’t thought of very highly by male drs, and it seems to make no difference whether those women are in medical school, in nursing, or patients. I love this last bit from the article in regards to sexual abuse of female medical students:
“The public needs to know about what goes on in the medical education system. The American people deserve better.”
Elizabeth good find and I’m glad you had a chance to get a comment in before the article was deleted. I agree with you Mary that it speaks volumes the article was removed.
• 9943 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 26, 2013 at 11:18 pm
Chas, you’re welcome. I still have to post about Day 2. The things they don’t tell us, can and do harm us.
The new 3D mammogram. Stay alert…
You get less compression and fewer false positives, but more radiation. There is not a word about over-diagnosis. They’ll find more cancers with this machine, I’m sure they will, but how many would have bothered us in our lifetime?
As technology continues to improve, well, instead of 50% of screen detected cancers being over-diagnosed, it’ll be 70% and we’ll be told that 1 in 3 of us will get breast cancer in our lifetime. The current slogan is 1 in 9 women will get breast cancer.
It’s all highly misleading, risk rises with your age, the 1 in 9 is averaging out risk/incidence into advanced old age. This lifetime average would also, include the million or so who’ve been over-diagnosed.
“In the past 30 years, an estimated 1.3 million American women had breast cancers that were “overdiagnosed,” which means their screening-detected tumors would never have led to clinical symptoms, according to a study published in the November 22 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine”
Original Ref:N Engl J Med. 2012;367:1998-2005
Taken from Medscape Today News, 21/11/2012
Medscape Medical News – Oncology
Study: 1.3 Million Over-diagnosed Breast Cancers in 30 Years
How many of these women died as a result of chemo and radiotherapy? Crickets chirping…
The 5 year studies that show you’re more likely to be alive in 5 years time if your cancer is screen detected suddenly make more sense, of course you’ll still be alive, the cancer was never going to bother you anyway.
I’ve read reports that say some American women are probably getting small breast cancers as a result of the overuse of the mammogram, all that radiation. These women have been screening every year since they’re late 30s or 40.
Will I be tempted with this “more comfortable” and “improved” machine? NO
As I said, what they don’t tell us, can and does harm us.
• 9944 – ADM (Canada)
Apr 27, 2013 at 5:49 am
I remember rolling my eyes at Dr Oz’s colon cancer scare because all he had was a polyp removed that could have become cancer. It’s the equivalent of having a mole removed from your arm and saying it was a skin cancer scare because it could have become cancerous someday. I have never heard of the risks of colonoscopy discussed beyond the risks with sedation. Having the polyps removed leaves an open wound in the colon which is now a place for the risk of infection. The preparation for the procedure causes all of the good bacteria in the gut to leave which puts the person at risk for IBS and/or infection as the good bacteria in the gut is involved with the immune system and healthy functioning of the bowels. Too much risk in my opinion.
Once again from Katie Couric the one sided message of screening is being told which is such a disservice. It feeds into the prevalent mentality of trying to thwart death. The fact is something will get you in the end and being poked and prodded yearly and told you’re fine is not a guarantee to living through the next year. In fact it could be a disservice as not could the patient ignore symptoms a Dr might also. I’ve heard of Dr’s saying well I didn’t detect anything during the pelvic exam so that’s not the cause of your pelvic pain. When in reality the person has uterine cancer. The message needs to get out that screening does not save lives, it puts your health at risk, and lifestyle including diet (eat those leafy greens) and exercise are the true preventions.
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• 9945 – Sue
Apr 27, 2013 at 11:28 am
Torrance there is a woman on my site having difficulties ordering pills online and I’m wondering if you have any suggestions for her. It might be more difficult trying to order into Canada. Also it sounds as if some road blocks are being put into place by some sites?
ADM well put. I agree having a polyp removed places a person at greater risk of harm than leaving it in place would. But it would most likely create a huge amount of business when people develop symptoms such as IBS/infection as a result of having an open wound in the colon or from having destroyed all the resident bacteria.
• 9946 – Mary
Apr 27, 2013 at 4:14 pm
You’re right Sue some medical students never grow up. Remember the SEGO newsletter “jokes” all ridiculing women and their medical conditions? And they could see nothing wrong it and said it was just a joke.I hate it when someone says something offensive and then they try to put the blame the victim by claiming they have no sense of humour.
Also about the medical student thing, I think that these abuses happen at the most prestigeous universites (like they did here)because they often attract the kind of person after prestige, ie not genuine kind of people but wankers. I deliberately did not choose to go to one of the prestigious ones to avoid those types. Sydney uni was also in the news not long ago because of their mysogynist behaviour in one of the residential colleges. These sandstone unis are elitist, sexist,racist and everything else I abhor. The uni I chose to go to has a lot more female students than male and is inclusive of all people.
• 9947 – Graeme NZ
Apr 28, 2013 at 4:06 am
Well guys i will be offline for a couple of weeks now. am just praying this operation qworks out ok. My wife got her provera without too much problems. However the first thing her doc said was…”You are overdue for smears”…Wife said well only by 22 years and then said look I have been married for 32 years and am not interested. I have more chance of being hit by a bus than getting CC. Nothing more was said really except the doc told her she could fill in a form at reception and she will never be bothered again. That also applies to mammograms. So she signed even though it is annoying. You should not have to sign anything just because you refuse an offer? It all seems too simple but lets see what happens. I am sure more presure is put on young women when they present for birth control. Anyway keep the flames burning and many thanks for your kind words.
• 9948 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 28, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Graeme, all the best, hope it all goes smoothly and you’re back with us very soon.
Good news about your wife, common sense finally prevails. Hope the Pills give her some relief. It’s annoying we have to opt-outt when we didn’t opt-in, but at least your wife can see her doctor in the future without THAT topic raising it’s ugly head. Fingers crossed…
It will be interesting to see because you can’t permanently opt-out of the UK program, 4 years later the red ink letters start again so women have to opt-out again. I’d be speaking to a solicitor.
Hope NZ is different….
• 9949 – David (UK)
Apr 29, 2013 at 3:39 am
Sexual abuse of patients is one of the most frequent reasons for discipline of doctors by the various provincial authorities that regulate doctors.
According to a recent CBC news report, Since 2007, over 125 doctors have been disciplined in Ontario alone for sexual comments or actions against their patients.
There are currently 22 abuse allegations being investigated by the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons.
Blogger 8:12 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9950 – Torrance * Connecticut U.S.A.
Apr 29, 2013 at 11:02 am
Sue, I think it’s getting harder for Canadians to obtain prescriptions, too. My “luck” has solely been based upon trial and error; I only had that ONE recent mishap in almost 13 years of buying birth control pills online; the place claimed that India was on postal strike, which is why my order hadn’t been shipped. It sounded reasonable, but I requested a refund, anyway, for it would have been too much money to have lost. I was astonished when my full refund arrived in under a week, so it probably was a legitimate website; just wrong timing for me to try and purchase my remaining amount of pills needed. I will try again as more money permits. That one website I have ordered even some Asthma inhalers from (only $10.00 apiece! and they work great) sells birth control pills but at steep costs for me, however, there is no cost greater than having RELIEF those pills have given to me by bypassing those surly, awful, disbelieving, misogynistic doctors.
Graeme, I wish you God’s speed in healing from your operation and that was pretty good news that your wife was able to get what she needed, although I can feel the doctor’s reluctance all the way here in The United States. It is absolutely horrid.
• 9951 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 29, 2013 at 3:24 pm
They make it very difficult for women to get the Pill any other way, that’s how coercion works, drive women into a corner and force them into testing.
Coercion is only effective when everyone plays the game and you have barriers in place preventing online access.
I recall many years ago a family friend telling my parents they left Ireland because they didn’t want any more children. He went to the UK to buy condoms, but had them confiscated when he landed at the Irish port. His wife had almost died having their 5th child. So the options were no sex or take your chances.
Yet so few can see how wrong this is…and there is absolutely no difference between these demands and suddenly saying men who want Viagra MUST have a colonoscopy…oh, and toss in a useless testicular exam.
This would be laughed at, it’s so absurd, yet women face this type of barrier. I consider it assault, they’re not clinical requirements for the Pill or anything else. You can’t consent when you’re being coerced or misled…”you must have”, “it’s a requirement” etc
• 9952 – Kleigh (US)
Apr 29, 2013 at 9:14 pm
There is a new show on mtv called girl code. Its on hear in the US. They joke about things like breasts and guys. But on the new eppisode. it shows a pick of a girl at the doctors office and they joke about pap smears. and say the word pap smear sounds like a dance move. I dont know if any one else has noticed that most shows geard tword woman are showing healthy woman going to the gyn and some even in the stirups. Its almost like an attempt to desisitise woman and make us feel like it is a normal thing to do. also I notice none of the woman on these shows seem the least bit bothered by having a pap or gyno exams. I wonder if this is an attempt to brainwash woman? or make those who do not go for exams feel like outcast. Also they never show woman geting leep or biopsys. its like a big lie.
• 9953 – JeanArt
Apr 30, 2013 at 12:36 pm
Another hopeful article with a whole bunch of baffling comments (as usual). Go to Dr. Sherman’s medical modesty blog and under the women’s privacy concerns (latest comment), you’ll find a link to an article in the New York Times about the questioning of routine pelvic exams, dated 4/29/13. I read though most of the comments and the vast majority of them are decrying the recommendation that pelvics are unnecessary in asymptomatic women. Things are just never going to change with so many brainwashed women. Sorry I can’t provide a direct link as I am not very tech savvy! Jean
• 9954 – Judy (US))
Apr 30, 2013 at 4:56 pm
Jean, I read the article and was also disheartened by many of the comments. What is truly baffling is that many of those posters decrying the recommendation have had surgeries as a result of these exams for things that turned out to be benign (benign ovarian cysts and the like) and yet they still think they were saved from some terrible fate by having a pelvic exam and the resultant surgery. When most likely they went through a surgery that was totally unnecessary! This level of brainwashing is truly mindboggling.
Blogger 8:13 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9955 – Elizabeth (Aust)
Apr 30, 2013 at 6:14 pm
Thanks Jean, I read this:
“I can’t speak to the scientific evidence of whether these exams save lives. What i can object to is the invasive nature of these exams, and the early age at which they begin– both of which have political ramifications. I was brought to an elderly male gynecologist as a young teen back in the early 80’s. I had little knowledge of sex, or of my own body. Such things were not spoken of in my house. The invasive, intimate manual exam by an old man felt like a rape. It was terrifying, violating, painful, confusing, humiliating. When he greeted my mother afterwards, he proclaimed that I was a virgin, furthering the sense of violation.
In all the years since, I don’t think any doctor has ever explained exactly what they were looking for, feeling around for, or hoped to gain from the exam other than the pap smear. A detailed explanation is the least a patient can expect while having someone enter their bodies. I even had one gynecologist explain, while I was still sitting there in my paper drape, that his office was now offering laser hair removal (plus some other ridiculous cosmetic procedure).
What really needs to be discussed here is the assumption that a woman’s body is there for the entering, from puberty on up, no questions asked, no explanations given. The issue this article raised for me is one of agency. I have a choice. Would you believe that as a middle aged woman, it has never occurred to me that I could choose to question this procedure”
These posts always get to me, what a brutal introduction to womanhood? Completely unnecessary and so harmful, traumatized for life. Hopefully, she’s seen the light and now understands she does have a right to say no and control what happens to her body.
Kleigh, I think you’re right, I’m often confronted when I find an article on pap tests or pelvic exams with a photo of a speculum or a woman in stirrups with a doctor in position. Why do we need to see that all the time? Is it to normalize the procedure? Make it familiar and more acceptable to us?
When I read articles on prostate screening, I don’t see men bending over and a doctor in position, or is it that male modesty and dignity is recognized, while we’re all “used” to these exams or supposed to be if we’re “normal”.
• 9956 – Mary
Apr 30, 2013 at 8:38 pm
I agree about that. And in the movies too. There was some movie that opened with Jennifer Lopez getting a gyn exam from an older male and all she was worried about was that her toes nails were not pedicured. I saw a similar scene in Desperate Housewives. To me it’s the director or writer getting some kind of enjoyment in humiliating women and trying to be oh so edgy. PPttt. There was totally no need for those scenes to be shot in that way.
• 9957 – Sia
Apr 30, 2013 at 9:52 pm
I think they use gyn exam scenes on TV/movies because it’s considered normal feminine practice, something *all* women can identify with. I remember watching a British TV series where women were called ‘pap smears’ in urban slang.
Pap smears have their own slang
urbandictionary http://blogcritics.mcercado.mtv-dev03.technorati.com/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-200/ http:/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pap-smear&page=4
• 9958 – Kleigh (US)
May 01, 2013 at 7:32 am
Mary, I remember when that movie came out . I saw a interview with Jlow and they joked about her just having twins and the lady said . something like Im sure you have experance up in the stirups bc she was just pregnant. Yes its asumed that all American woman see a gyn every year. if you say other wise people will look at you like you just slaped there child.
• 9959 – Kleigh (US)
May 01, 2013 at 7:35 am
And I have seen on some blogs were woman ask if they can call child protective scervises on a woman they know that refused to see an obgyn when she was pregnant.
Blogger 8:14 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9960 – Kleigh (US)
May 01, 2013 at 7:36 am
sorry when they were pregnant.
• 9961 – Mary
May 01, 2013 at 7:44 pm
The Medical Observer has an interview with some cc expert talking about the proposed changes to screening -notbefore 25, 3 yearly for 25-49 then 5 yearly then finshing at 65 with get this “an exit HPV test”. So we can’t get one before.And they are thinking of having a national pap smear registry as well as thinking of introducing a call and recall system. Bring it on! I’d like to see what happens when I repeatedly don’t show up for my pap appointments.
• 9962 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 02, 2013 at 1:09 am
Mary, we’ll protect excess, so that means 95% of women aged 30 and older will be screening unnecessarily, risking their health, and we shouldn’t be screening those under 30.
I knew they’d go that way…it was either do pap AND HPV tests on all women, expensive (and unnecessary) or stay with population over-screening. The latter is also, the lazy option, just wind it back a bit, no real changes.
IMO, it shows those controlling this program are protecting their interests and to hell with what’s best for women. We’d save more lives with HPV primary testing and HPV self-testing and spare the vast majority from a lifetime of unnecessary pap testing with the high risk of potentially harmful over-treatment. We’d also, save a lot of money.
It means women will have to go around the program and do what’s best for them….and for us to keep reaching out to women. (even if they bite our hands more often than not)
When excess has been protected for decades, I doubted they’d suddenly put women first.
I look forward to the day they call me up…I’m ready, have been for a long time.
• 9963 – Kleigh (US)
May 02, 2013 at 8:06 am
Mary, are they saying that is gona happen in the US?
• 9964 – Kleigh (US)
May 02, 2013 at 8:08 am
Mary, are they saying that is gona happen in the US?
Blogger 8:15 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9965 – Mary
May 02, 2013 at 12:29 pm
No this is in Australia. They also mentioned self HPV tests but they said it can’t work without a system in place. So yeah it sounds like they want to control it and us. What really angered me was that the doctor said how good the HPV test is but then they still don’t want us to have it.
Ohand the interview started with a rave of how “successful” the pap program is with get this: the death rate of cervical cancer dropping from 4 per 100,000 to 1.8 per 100,000. Woo pe do.
• 9966 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 02, 2013 at 6:35 pm
If enough women start using the Screener, it’ll jeopardize their screening targets and they’ll OMG, lose control! Then it will be interesting to see…they might lie to women and tell us we still need pap tests, even if they’re HPV-
I wouldn’t put anything past these people. No one could suggest this is in the best interests of women when 95% of women aged 30 to 60 will be having unnecessary pap testing and day procedure will still be full to overflowing. We shouldn’t be testing anyone under 30 without express informed consent, they should be told no one has shown a benefit testing those under after decades of testing and treating. (of course, informed consent is every woman’s right)
There is no way you could justify this much damage to help so few women, but conveniently, they never mention our shocking over-treatment rates.
The NY Times article on pelvic exams is very interesting, is it just me or are more American women waking up? There’s one horrifying post from a woman recommending all women have a full hysterectomy after age 50, “you don’t need it anymore, it’s just a site for cancer”…what a sad way to view your body? We don’t send that message out to men.
I posted, but someone else offered a wise opinion, “why not have a double mastectomy as well?”
Exactly…
• 9967 – Kleigh (US)
May 02, 2013 at 8:23 pm
American doctors are testing woman with the hpv test when they turn therty. And they say even if you test negative you still need paps every three years. its about money they never want woman to know most of us dont need pap smears. they have made a bussnes out of pap smears.
• 9968 – Sue
May 02, 2013 at 9:40 pm
Elizabeth the NY Times article is extremely interesting. It’s a summary of Dr. Westhoff’s article “Do new guidelines and technology make the routine pelvic examination obsolete?”, but it is done in a journalistic style. This style makes it more accessible and more interesting for the general public – it is brilliant. I also get the sense from the comments that more American women are waking up 🙂
• 9969 – Alice (Australia)
May 03, 2013 at 12:31 am
“They are thinking of having a national pap smear registry as well as thinking of introducing a call and recall system.”
— Even more reason to not give any personal information to any medical establishment! They will misuse it in any way that fits them. It’s time to start insisting on anonymous health care at every visit to a doctor. I’m sick of being forced to give them all my personal and private information, all the contact details, only to enable them to pass it on to some pesky national pap smear register, and then that mob will start calling me during, say, business meeting and tell me it’s time to be pap-raped. No, thank you, dear caring medical system. I definitely don’t want such “heath care”. It’s pure violation of our privacy.
They also mentioned self HPV tests but they said it can’t work without a system in place
— Of course, they always need some system in place. They just can’t let women decide for their own bodies. There has to be a system that will order, coerce, hunt, call and recall. A free country, anyone? Informed consent? Protection of privacy? Nop! The system knows better!
Blogger 8:15 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9970 – Kleigh (US)
May 03, 2013 at 8:34 am
I read thru the coments on that New York times artical. one of the woman said that she lies to her doctor about having paps so she can get birth control. and a Obgyn said ” if you dont want exams then dont have them. but stop whining about it. That shows what kind of man he realy is. a person like that has no bussnes being a doctor.
• 9971 – ADM (Canada)
May 03, 2013 at 11:10 am
I read through the comments on the New York Times article and they really do show how much women fear their female organs. Even when diagnosed with something benign they praise the pelvic exam as having saved them. I don’t understand the fear as they could have a benign cyst somewhere else in their body which they don’t seem concerned about. There was also a woman commenting who had a total hysterectomy who goes for pelvic exams every four months. What a scam if I ever heard one. There’s no longer anything there for the Dr to feel to examine. Then of course there are women commenting who are going to have a pelvic exam now because of all the scary stories. Once again the fear revolves around their female organs. It would never occur to them to get a brain scan because they could have brain cancer or an EKG because heart disease is more likely to kill them. Reversing this mentality is going to take a long time.
• 9972 – Kleigh (US)
May 03, 2013 at 12:23 pm
Exactly. there is way more to woman than a cervix and utterus.
• 9973 – Sue
May 03, 2013 at 1:00 pm
I have heard there are groups of people hired by doctors whose job is to scan the net for forums, articles, etc. and “pose” as women commenters who have been “saved”. Their comments are designed to tip women’s thinking one way. Their comments instill fear and promote screening. Of course I’m sure some comments are made by legitimate pro-pap people – but not ALL the time. And of course some of the comments might also be made by pro-pap drs.
• 9974 – Sue
May 03, 2013 at 1:04 pm
Oh, and I know there are companies that will, for a fee, submit multiple positive comments from different IP’s and under different names for drs on sites such as Rate MD, etc.
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• 9975 – Mary
May 03, 2013 at 2:56 pm
And what I don’t understand is why doctors came second on the list of most trusted profession, which I read yesterday. Nurses came first.
When money plays such a large part of the equation, it is not going to attract the most altruistic people. Paramedics and firefighters have my vote, not greedy doctors. I also read about a survey completed by doctors who said they won’t have drug addicts as patients. The comments were very cold and unempathetic. It didn’t seem to occur to these privileged doctors that perhaps drug addicts have not had the all the advantages that they probably had growing up, that addicts probably came from an upbringing of abuse and neglect.
• 9976 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 03, 2013 at 5:32 pm
Sue, I suspected that was happening and I think some women seek to shock by saying things like, “four of my closest friends had cc”…what are the chances? Four of her friends might have had false positives and over-treatment. Making things up to shock and scare…hard to understand, but these women seem to be outraged that some women question the value and need for these exams/tests. The scattergun insults and scary stories say to me….read over this woman’s advice.
Interesting that some of the quotes are from women saved from benign cysts thanks to the routine pelvic exam…they don’t seem to realize they’re supporting the author’s contention…RPEs lead to over-investigation and over-treatment and that can harm us.
• 9977 – Sue
May 03, 2013 at 10:01 pm
Elizabeth it is hard to understand, there is such defensiveness and sometimes intense anger. Maybe part of it is knowing that, deep down, they DO understand that the exam itself and the reasons for it are all wrong and that their instincts were right in the first place. I blame the system and the drs for doing this to women. Women turning on each other sometimes can be due to oppression, and that might be part of it. And of course it is impossible to differentiate between the legitimate comments and the ones that might not be.
It is frustrating when women who have benign cysts that lead to harmful “treatments” are not told the truth, but are left damaged and feeling as if they have been saved, when if fact they have been harmed for no reason. I like this part of the article:
“Dr. Sawaya says it’s time to change this practice, in which doctors “put patients in a perilous situation and then act like they’re rescuing them.†He admits that his position “won’t win any popularity contests, but I’m trying to do what’s right for patients.â€
Dr. Sawaya put it right out there, that Dr. deserves a medal, as does Dr. Westhoff. I wonder how much sh*t and abuse they’ve had to put up with from other drs.
• 9978 – Diane (US)
May 04, 2013 at 12:21 am
@ Sue: Oh yes, planted comments and reviews in social media are a real issue now. If you go to any writing job board you will see companies looking for writers to plant comments and reviews about all sorts of topics. Big Pharma and Big Medicine certainly have every incentive in the world to do that. Every time I read comments about paps saving someone’s life, or comments sternly commanding people to get paps and pelvics, I automatically assume I’m reading something from either a plant or a very misinformed patient who has been subjected to scare tactics.
• 9979 – Kleigh (US)
May 04, 2013 at 8:50 am
There is also people paid to find out the resons why woman do not go for pap smears and mamograms. They never get the piont that some have made infoemed choises.
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• 9980 – Alice (Australia)
May 04, 2013 at 4:43 pm
Sue, it might be very good topics to write an article about in your wonderful blog:
– Mislead patients who were overtreated and then made believe that they were saved by this testing and “treatment”, which in fact was unnecessary.
– Medical profession’ s misnomer of dysplasia – they prefer to call it carcinoma. It sounds more like cancer and patients are more likely to be scared, to believe they do need the painful surgery and to test religiously every few months for the rest of their lives.
– Subsequent pro-screening position of those patients. They are made believe their lives were saved and subsequently advocate the screening and insist that their friends and relatives submit to the system as well.
– High amount of fake pro-screening comments around the Internet with ridiculous statements like “cc runs in my family” or “five of my best friends/ cousins had cc”.
A good solid article about misleading tricks and mislead patients will be a great help to those who haven’t been trapped yet.
• 9981 – Alice (Australia)
May 04, 2013 at 4:49 pm
I also agree with ADM. Women’s health care revolves around breasts and genitals. Women are nowhere near as concern about, say, cardiovascular diseases, which account for 40% of deaths, as they fear r rare cervical cancer, which has only 0.65%!of chance.
It’s called “bikini medicine”. No logic in it, just fear, money and overtreatment.
• 9982 – Sue
May 05, 2013 at 11:52 am
Diane yes, Big Pharma and Big Medicine certainly do have vested interests in planting comments and reviews, and they have the money to do so in a big way. It is so annoying. Some of the comments are so ridiculous and over the top though that you doubt their credibility, even without being aware that some comments might be plants.
Alice I’ve copied and pasted your comments into a draft. I think that your ideas would make great post fodder and are pretty much good to go as is. I won’t be able to get to it for a while but will as soon as I get the opportunity. Thank you for doing that. I like the term “bikini medicine” and I have noticed the fear mongering regarding breast cancer has picked up the pace. Probably an effort to increase women’s business because I do get the sense fewer women are falling for paps/pelvics. Just like on a date gone wrong – you push the hand away from your skirt and the hand scoots up to your breasts.
• 9983 – Alice (Australia)
May 05, 2013 at 4:15 pm
Sue, I’m very glad that you decided to write a post about it in your blog. You are very welcome to use my comments in any way you like and copy or edit them whichever way you see best. There is no rush of course, whenever you have some free time. I just thought that it may be very helpful to put all those thoughts together, support them with facts and examples, and outline the current situation in a solid article.
While there are plenty of faux comments around the Internet about certain doctors, medications or with unrealistic stories, there are still many women who truly believe that they had a life-threatening disease and that their lives were really saved by the screening and subsequent treatments. And they do believe that they are doing the good and right thing by urging the others to “take care of themselves” and “go get checked”. Those mislead women are also sure that the people like us here, who do their own research, question medical recommendations and voice the revealing facts, are malicious and trying to detract the others from the “vital” medical surveillance and intervention. It’s too difficult for them to accept that they allowed to be deceived, voluntarily handed their body to the system, which used them for profits and statistics and harmed them for no benefit.
They behave in the same way the majority behaved centuries ago, when some strange man started saying that the Earth is round. The majority were sure it was flat, and truly believed that the strange man was either mad, or malicious for trying to detract them from their “vital” faith. Hence the excommunications and burnings at stake.
Fortunately, the aggressive pro-screeners can’t burn us at stake and the medical system can’t “excommunicate” us, but the comments they direct at us are pretty nasty. They are missing the main point: the medical system does benefit from deception, over-screening and over-treatment, while people like us don’t make any money on saving someone from unnecessary harm. Who is more likely to tell the truth then? If anything, we spend our free time on writing about true facts, reading through researches and presenting the evidence. We are not doing it for profits, we are saying it because it’s the truth, just like the man who was insisting that the Earth is round wasn’t profiting from that.
The truth is hard to see and accept at times, especially if the deception is based on fear and supported by the profession that is supposed to be trusted, be knowledgeable and act in our best interests.
• 9984 – OverItAll (US)
May 06, 2013 at 1:20 am
Silly Me! Why should I care about men getting a Urine HPV Test http://www.inspire.com/groups/national-cervical-cancer-coalition/discussion/new-hpv-test-for-men/ when I can lay naked, spread eagle in front of a stranger (most likely male) while he fingers me and places objects in me. I’ll also forget that you can use the SAME urine sample to test for HPV, Chlamydia and Gonorrhea http://www.mdnews.com/news/2010_06/05849_jun2010_newhpvtestformen.aspx
This Article (PDF) states http://www.biol.ttu.edu/faculty/densmore/Shared Documents/BIOL 4320, 5320 Discussion Papers/Student Papers and Presentations/Student Presentation Paper – HPV- Melody Wainscott.pdf :
1) “HPV infection in men is aubclinical resulting in a large number of asymptomatic carrier” (just like women)
2) Sites swabbed: glans penis/coronal sulcus, penile shaft (prepuce is present), scrotum, perianal area and 2 saline-wetted inserted into the anal canal up to anal verge.
3) Of the 463 men tested, most were under 30 years, of non-hispanic ethnicity, and single.
4) HPV concordance was highest at the anal canal at 9.7%, followed by penile shaft at 95% (guess we know why male HPV testing isn’t available)
In summary,
“Assessment of HPV infection at various anogenital sites in men, high reliability and reproducibility were observed in both the collection and testing procedures for the identi?cation of anogenital type HPV infection in men” .
IMO: Let’s be honest, males refused the genital swabs for STDs and so the urine tests were created. Odds are, men will sooner or later get a urine HPV test leaving our insides to continue to be scraped and bleeding.
Blogger 8:19 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 9985 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 06, 2013 at 1:22 am
Over at the New York Times, the article linked by Jean, (I think) “Questioning the Pelvic Exam”…it would be great if a few of you posted, a pathologist has challenged me regarding my unscreened status. I’ve replied, (it’s waiting for approval) but It would be great if he heard that other women also, choose not to screen. It’s not just me.
We need to get it out there that choosing not to screen is something we can reasonably choose to do, we’re not ratbags.
• 9986 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 06, 2013 at 2:44 am
OIA, thank you for the information.
The double standard is breathtaking…and it confirms IMO, they respect a man’s right to non-invasive options, bodily autonomy and privacy, but don’t give a damn about us. If we object to invasive testing, we have the problem. We need counseling…
No wonder non-invasive testing was not a priority, it was just a question of finding new ways to get women into invasive testing.
Of course, the system needs/wants to control us, self-testing is therefore viewed as a threat.
Telling that the video linked by Mary mentions HPV primary testing would have to be part of a program…why? Why is it unthinkable to give women the information and options and leave them to make their own decisions? Thankfully, women CAN do their own thing and to hell with their need for control…and the number of informed women is growing every day.
• 9987 – OverItAll (US)
May 06, 2013 at 2:01 pm
#4 should read 97.7% NOT 9.7. Sorry!!
Of course they’re going to continue to control us/our bodies. They’ve been told themselves AND continue telling women for how long women that women lacked the intelligence or ability to make decisions!
I know my risk of biopsy/unnecessary surgery far outweighs my risk of cancer. I’ll pass on the “screenings” and keep my perfectly-working body alone.
• 9988 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 06, 2013 at 7:10 pm
OIA,
It annoys me as well, especially doctors/people who say all women who’ve ever had sex, even once, must or should have pap testing. (let’s leave aside the madness of the American policy of testing all women from 21, even those not yet sexually active)
If we don’t screen, we’re reckless and taking a horrible risk with out health and life.
Yet we don’t see the same attitudes in prostate screening.
The system says we’re not entitled to weigh up the risks and likelihood of benefit or examine our risk profile, in fact, they don’t give us the information we’d need to do that…we’re just expected to deliver up our body and oops, if it doesn’t work out, tough…it “might” have helped us or we should remember a life was saved somewhere else. Doesn’t that make us feel better?
The attitudes are disgraceful…I have never considered myself a number on the way to a target.
I’ve seen the fall-out and it’s not pretty, it’s devastating, and we’re talking about a LOT of women. I cannot get over how they ignore so many over-treated women, focus on fewer than 0.45% of women and call us crazy if we decide it’s a lousy deal.
It says a lot about the medical profession and it’s not flattering.
• 9989 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 08, 2013 at 6:21 pm
Thanks Sue,
Wow, VERY good post over at the New York Times by Count me amused…that sort of insightful response must make doctors VERY uncomfortable. They must miss the golden days of pre-internet or when censorship was the norm…those who delete posts and close threads must hate these articles, and they keep coming…
America, you’re on a roll…change is on the way. Meanwhile, not much is happening here…ranks are mostly closed in our medical profession, no pesky whistleblowers or trouble makers.
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• 9990 – Sue
May 09, 2013 at 1:02 am
I agree Elizabeth. The comment by “CountMeAmused” was delightful, I’ve copied and pasted some of my favorite points that were made about paps and breast exams here:
“2. How did this ever come to be? The industry appears to have cashed in a blank check it was given and women, who are usually a LOT smarter than this, were bluffed / intimidated / indoctrinated into same.
3. What’s the role of male sexuality in all this? Odd design, no? It’s not like palpation-based diagnostics worked elsewhere in medicine. This was knowable in advance.
4. What a massive misappropriation of precious healthcare dollars! Between the examination and false positives.
Needs a look.” (CountMeAmused, May 8, 2013)
I love the comments questioning the role of “male sexuality in all of this” and the fact that “palpation-based diagnostics” elsewhere in medicine are known to Not work. It certainly does need a look.
• 9991 – Sue
May 09, 2013 at 10:29 pm
Elizabeth your comment in reply to CountMeAmused was tagged with the NYT “Pick” award. I noticed it was the only comment amongst the 450 or so comments that earned the Editor’s Pick award. Not only is the recognition for your comment much deserved, it is a marker of the changes you have instigated.
• 9992 – Anon
May 10, 2013 at 6:01 pm
I mentioned to my friend that I needed to switch detergents because my discharge was staining my underwear light orange. She said, “That could be an infection!You should see your gynecologist!”
When I smiled and said, “No the discharge is clear like always, it is the residue on my underwear.”
She got annoyed.”You are nuts by avoiding the gynecologist. After all this isn’t a lap smear this is getting checked for infection!”
What is this obsession with not being able to self diagnose when it comes to THAT area? If I had detergent irritation on my arms no one would say a word.
And for heaven’s sake IF orange panty spots were a sign of an infection wouldn’t waiting to see if it goes away a prudent thing?
It is NUTS that anything amiss in the vaginal area is considered a dire medical emergency?
• 9993 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 10, 2013 at 8:41 pm
Exactly, Anon…
The desperate need to keep well women in stirrups is so transparently about money. Some American doctors have accepted the days are numbered for the routine pelvic exam and they can’t sell pap tests every year. More women are becoming aware of the evidence and there must be more pressure from within the profession to stop over-screening, over-everything.
So…some of trying to sell an annual visual inspection of the outside and inside of our genitals, “to check for lesions”. (and of course, still selling the unhelpful routine breast exam, that just leads to excess biopsies)
Yet I don’t hear other specialists asking everyone to come in for an annual check for “lesions” in the ear canal, mouth/throat, perhaps, a “lesion” hiding under the testicles…no, apparently, it’s only the female body that must be scrutinized annually for lesions.
It really is a sick joke, a pathetic attempt to justify an unnecessary and potentially harmful annual “service”. (and fee)
I think it’s a bad idea to use a gynecologist as a primary carer.
There is no need for well woman to ever see a gynecologist and THEY know it. (unless we see a need, a colleague recently saw a gynecologist (who specializes in menopause) to get some advice, should she increase her intake of soy? She’s well and just wanted some advice from an expert, and there was no physical exam…no need to go searching for lesions!)
Our gynecologists do not rely on a waiting room full of well women, I doubt they’d cope, but they do enjoy the work from “abnormal” pap tests. That’s no doubt the reason why some are against a move away from population pap testing and over-screening.
Sue, that makes a nice change. Not so long ago one of the doctors threatening us with a premature and avoidable death would have bagged the award.
• 9994 – Mary
May 10, 2013 at 10:38 pm
And why is it that we can by a stool test kit for bowel cancer but we can’t get the Delphi screener OTC because apparently we women aren’t capable of knowing what to do with the result? I’ll be waiting for the warnings from gynaecologists, if it does become available here, telling us not to use them because we still need to discuss the results with our doctor. So what’s the point of buying them they’ll say.
Why did we not see gastroenterologists make a big fuss when those stool kits were introduced? Obviously because bowel cancer is quite common they won’t be out of business. But if women know their true HPV status, well it’s going to be a bit hard to tell women with a straight face that they still need that colposcopy. I am truly sick of the way women are treated by the medical profession (and the way most women seem to like being treated like children).
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• 9995 – Hexanchus (male-US)
May 11, 2013 at 7:18 am
Elizabeth,
You stated: “There is no need for well woman to ever see a gynecologist and THEY know it.”
I agree 100%, and will take it a step further: There is no need for any well person to ever see a physician. Sure there are exceptions for things such as immunizations or as you pointed out to gain useful information and advice, but such encounters should be limited to the purpose of the visit.
Historically physicians were there to provide treatment and care on an as needed basis – you went to the doctor when you had symptoms or an injury that needed treatment. Somehow it has evolved into a system that demands everyone, whether ill or not, participate in exams and screening that have little or no proven benefit to the patient, but can result in significant harm.
How did this happen? It’s all about $$$$ and is driven by the medical/pharma industry.
• 9996 – Anon
May 11, 2013 at 7:23 am
Thanks Elizabeth. Once you write your book I’m sending copies to every woman I know.
And as far as detergent caused panty stains, I wonder if the maker of Tide detergent is in cohoots with the gyn industry.
Oh and you’ll like this: I was googling the stains, looking for helpful suggestions on detergent that doesn’t react with body fluid (found several) and came across a message board where women were complaining of blue vaginal discharge.
Not convinced that it was a chemical reaction from detergent/softeners,they were trying to determine what dire disease gave them blue panties. (All of them had clear, normal discharge. This was only on their underwear).
Some suggested HIV, fungus, alien contact (I kid you not) and magellon’s; and one had seen doctors and had I think a colposcopy, smear, ultrasound and bloodwork because the doctors were stumped.
One poster finally weighed in, explained that they needed to calm down, that their PH was reacting to chemicals in detergent, but they ignored that. It was the GYN to the rescue all the way.
• 9997 – Anon
May 11, 2013 at 7:31 am
Hexanchus reminded me of something: My aunt & uncle visited last weekend. She is mid 60’s, he’s mid 70’s. To take advantage of a medicare program they had to go for physicals. My uncle was in and out quickly, told he was healthy as heck, and that was all.
My aunt was peppered with questions. Her last physical was 45 years ago when she had her last baby. The doctor (a female) was aghast.
She asked my aunt about the results of her last mammogram and colonoscopy.
My aunt said,”Don’t know. Never had one.”
The doctor grabbed some paperwork to schedule both & my aunt said,”You can arrange them but I won’t have them.”
The Dr responded,”Well I can’t MAKE you have one..”
No joke?
Male patient, no problem. Female patient gets the Russian Roulette with your health speech.
No check-ups, no meds, no issues. My aunt and uncle aren’t even the “worried well” the medical profession likes to target because heck, they’re not worried.
• 9998 – Anon
May 11, 2013 at 8:36 am
One more thing: It will probably be the women of Australia and Europe who will lead the charge against the gyn industrial complex, at least for now. Since the president’s health bill passed, EVERY site or article that suggests we limit paps or mammograms the instant replies are,”The rationing has begun!” “Obama’s war on women!” added to the,”The AMA hates women!”
The other thing standing in the way are the hundreds of thousands of women (millions, maybe) who get their antidepressants and anti anxiety meds from their gyn in order to feel “okay” about taking psych meds. I was one of those women who went for yearly paps JUST to get my Zoloft script.
Sounds nutty but I did. And because my dr was “mammogram insistent” I lined up once a year for that too for fear he may drop me as a patient & I’d be stuck somehow with a gyn who wouldn’t write the SSRI script no questions asked.
THIS blog and the books of Dr H Gilbert Welch changed my life. Saved me from two horrid rounds of anxiety per year.
The responses to articles we’ve all discussed are heartbreaking,”…well if I’d have waited two years I’d be dead…” Or,”…I had a complete hysterectomy at 21. Paps saved my life!”
But in reality it could be as if we were visiting the 1950’s. Women weren’t stupid then or now, they were just not informed. Back then it was perfectly reasonable to think you couldn’t get pregnant the first time, that all vaginitis was a dirty secret, that Coke douches were adequate birth control. Women (like men) parroted what they were told.
And for generations it was passed down to daughters: Everyone hates pelvics but you need to go every year. The dr has to inspect everything. You can die if you miss your pap. The breast exam finds lumps you wouldn’t. The mammogram finds cancer early and the earlier the better.
It seems like scooping out the ocean with a teaspoon. BUT today (most) younger women don’t believe sex myths. We have given breadtfeeding and midwives hearty endorsement.
Even the huge market for feminine deodorants and such has had to shrink.
Now we just have to fight a multi billion dollar industry by educating one woman at a time.
This needs publicity & a greater audience. Come on, Elizabeth, you are a hero. Write that book!
• 9999 – Kleigh (US)
May 11, 2013 at 10:03 am
I just read a fourm where a friend was upset that her 33 year old friend confessed to never going to a gyno. the woman said she “almost feel to the flor when she found out about her friend not seeing a gyn and made her an appt for her friend to see the gyno. she was madd that her friend cancelled and said that she was not taking her gyn health serusly. the comments from other woman were awfull and some were shaming her mother for not teaching about health exams and taking her to see a gyn when she was a teen. I was offended by what one woman said ” she has never been thru the rite of passage to womanhood and her mother should have taken her when she was a teen. they all blamed her mother for not taking her as a teen. I was soo madd when i read that. Also the friend was saying she coulnt beleve her friend was not on birth control and that she had not had the hpv shot and that she could hav cervical cancer and not know it. I am angrey at American doctors for brainwashing woman to think no one can be healthy with out these intrusive exams. can u belive they think your not taking ur health seruly if ur not on birth control. this is insanity.
Blogger 8:21 am on August 19, 2013 Permalink |
• 10000 – Kleigh (US)
May 11, 2013 at 10:15 am
this fourm is on baby center and the tital is ” my best friend is 33 and never had a pap smear and refuses.” I was soo offended by what those woman were saying.
• 10001 – Kleigh (US)
May 11, 2013 at 10:17 am
And I guess i not a woman at 28 because i have never been to a gyno and never will unless i have symptons.
• 10002 – Kleigh (US)
May 11, 2013 at 11:23 am
And Anon, American woman are acused of “Not caring about there gyn health or being selfish mothers and wifes for not taking care of there health .” If they openly admit to doctors or other woman that they do not have annual exams. I wonder how woman lived for millons of years and had kids with out obgyns doing paps and pelvics on them.
• 10003 – Anon
May 11, 2013 at 11:38 am
Absolutely. The Baby Center board you referenced was insane. It was as if instead of saying,”My friend has never had a gyn visit” she was saying,”My friend exclusively has unprotected sex with only HIV positive men who have warts and pustules.”
Those women were about to have strokes.
Guess I can say,”My laundry detergent is reacting with my sweat” and that’s not a dr issue. But “My laundrey detergent is reacting with my vaginal discharge” and I need to call “GYN 911.”
I’m still upset about the number of total hysterectomy patients who go for checks to make sure their vagina,”Looks ok.”
Lord love a duck.
• 10004 – Kleigh (US)
May 11, 2013 at 12:35 pm
I agree Anon.
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• 10005 – Sarah (.au)
May 11, 2013 at 9:32 pm
Lately, I have been working with information security and privacy issues, which also included medical information leaks and privacy violations. During the research and investigations, I had a look at the medical software that is used by doctors and medical centres for keeping files on their patients, for revealing non-complying rioters, and for generating statistics for recalls, reminders, marketing and other tricks to get people beck into waiting rooms.
Here are two examples of standard medical “big brother” software, and you can clearly see the obsession with pap smears. Pap smears not only regarded “important” enough to have their own tab pages, they are in the same line with diabetes, smoking, allergies and immunisations. It’s just shocking!
Example 1 – Patient database interface http://i.imgur.com/8E0ePaR.jpg
Example 2 – Clinical audit software http://i.imgur.com/7iBmmvN.jpg
The medical system is totally obsessed with pap smears!
• 10006 – Kleigh (US)
May 12, 2013 at 4:31 pm
There was a pick under the pap smear report with a littel scaple beside pathogy report. sick.
• 10007 – Elizabeth (Aust)
May 12, 2013 at 8:25 pm
Day 2 of the Conference:
The first speaker was Jack Wennberg, Founder of the Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice. Dr Wennberg spoke about addressing unwarranted variations in healthcare across America. Why does one State spend far more on a particular test, procedure or surgery?
Can better care cost less? Yes
For over 20 years the Dartmouth Atlas project has looked for/at variations in how medical resources are used in the States.
Finding the right balance: we don’t want too much or too little care.
You’ll find information on the Atlas project at their website.
(Dr Welch wrote an interesting article in the Huffington Post responding to criticism of the Atlas Project:
“Is geographic variation in expenditures really just about the cost of living in different regions? Was the case for health care reform made on faulty premises? And the most fundamental question of all: Is there really waste in American medical care? Yes.”
“There are dramatic differences in amount of health care used in different regions of the country. And its not about price, its about the number of services.”
“The fundamental question is to what extent is the observed variation warranted (different areas need different amounts of care) vs. unwarranted (different areas simply have different practice styles). Sometimes the answer is readily apparent. No one would invoke need as an explanation for why doctors in one town in Vermont performed tonsillectomies in children at 10 times the rate of another town 60 miles south. Similarly, no one would argue that elderly men in the Pacific Northwest needed to undergo radical prostatectomy at twice the rate of their counterparts in the Northeast. Instead these differences clearly reflected physician practice styles.”
(“Are the Dartmouth data wrong?” by H. Gilbert Welch, Professor of Medicine, Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice, Huffington Post, 16/06/10)
(Note: this newspaper features several articles by Dr Welch, another talks about making more funds available for research into the value of “current” drugs, tests and exams, instead of just adding more and more#, and another talks about winding back breast screening.
#cervical screening – more and more, pile up the tests, an example where less is definitely more.
(It’s interesting to look at variations around the developed world with cervical screening and outcomes. Finland does the least amount of testing with the best results – fewer deaths and much less over-treatment)
Ben Goldacre spoke, he’s a doctor and author of “Big Pharma” and “Bad Science”.
He has concerns about non-disclosure of research data. There is deliberate suppression of negative studies. This is unacceptable as patients are exposed to side effects and may be deprived of better treatments. For some reason we don’t consider non-publication to be research misconduct. We need all of the research data…not just the favourable results.
(Screening authorities also, think it’s acceptable to cherry-pick research)
Jack Cuzick, Epidemiologist from Wolfson Institute of Preventative medicine, Queen Mary, Uni of London.
He was critical of the NCI and their systematic reviews. Some studies can’t or shouldn’t be compared…and there is not enough focus on clinical issues. We should use our judgement, including in clinical trials. He felt including very different trials in a meta-analysis may be inappropriate.
“There is no RCT for cervical screening, yet most would say it’s been an effective program.”
(Not me…it’s not as simple as “possibly” saving a few women, the evidence should be followed so you maximize lives saved and minimize the burden of testing and harm to the healthy population of women. MOST women ie. Finnish and Dutch programs)
The next speaker was Peter Wilmshurst, Cardiologist, Univ Hospital of North Staffordshire.
A very interesting speaker who has spent a large part of his career fighting dishonesty in big pharma. He’s uncovered research evidence being altered, manipulated, and attempts to influence outcomes in drug and technical development. Note: 60% of evidence is not published and only part is made available.
He was approached to look at results and possibly act as spokesperson for a new cardiac drug. He didn’t agree with the results and was told, “you’re the only one to say that, you should be careful or you may negatively affect your reputation”. (or similar words) He was told an American Professor and many others agreed with their findings. Those in the States were told a UK Professor and others agreed with their findings etc.
Dr Wilmshurst refused to remain silent, went public and was sued…defending the legal action has cost him a lot of money, time and grief.
(There was a query from the floor, should there be a fighting fund for doctors who want to take on the pharmaceutical industry? The drug in Q INCREASED the likelihood of death by 30%. (it was administered after a cardiac event)
If a drug can’t be marketed in one country. they may take it to another country. Query: whether we need some sort of international register listing drugs that have been taken off the market or banned in some countries?)
The pharmaceutical industry is powerful and their emphasis is commercial…the temptation to make huge profits is ever-present. The UK has tightened up the practice of wooing doctors with expensive conferences, gifts etc, the States has not: beware!
It’s important to look at research critically, who funded the research? Do the researchers sit on the Board of any companies? (conflict of interest/vested interest) Are they a paid consultant of a company linked to the new drug/device? Have we got ALL of the research and clinical trials? (probably not)
I went to the lecture on publishing, which was interesting. It was mentioned the public should not be locked out of medical journals…pay walls prevent many from accessing real information.
(VERY good point – over-diagnosis in breast screening has been discussed and debated behind pay walls for many years. I’m sure more women would have heard about this risk a LOT earlier without the pay walls.)
Brian Haynes, Editor, ACP Journal Club
I’d never heard of this man, but he’s an investigative journalist who took on Dr Wakefield and others. (who claimed childhood vaccinations were linked to autism) This research has been discredited, but if someone searches the subject, they’ll still find Wakefield’s papers in the journals.
We need to consider how to have these papers withdrawn, some way to alert the computer savvy public that the articles/research is unreliable/has been discredited.
Anyway, this man has been fighting Wakefield and others for many years…in and out of Court.
The issue here: parents act on this information. There are parents who blame themselves after their vaccinated child is diagnosed with autism. You can imagine high emotion is attached to this subject. Others have refused vaccination and may later regret that decision.
How do we deal with people doing their own research, coming to the wrong conclusion and then influencing others? Those who speak out may be influenced by good intentions or self-interest, ego etc (or just ratbags) (Sure, but the internet and women speaking out has been the only way to obtain real information on women’s cancer screening)
Mike Kelly from NICE spoke about developing evidence based public health…to slowly make changes.
(I agree, but there are many in the profession who don’t want to change, excess is profitable. Some doctors are resistant to change, “this is how I was taught”. Some women/people want what they’ve always had, some women are staying with annual pap testing. Change after many years is often viewed with suspicion by the public and some doctors.
We need to educate the public, so they feel comfortable questioning their doctor. More than ever before we need to take greater control of our healthcare.
Can we do more to change the clinical behaviour of doctors who don’t change with new recommendations?)
Tracey Brown from Sense about Science also, spoke well. It’s a site worth visiting with lots of interesting work going on, articles and discussion.
Closing address….and that was it, the next conference will be in about 2 years.
Was it worth the long journey and expense? Absolutely
(Note: Info in brackets – my comments, questions from the floor or topics discussed over lunch or during coffee breaks)
Note: Dartmouth have a conference on Preventing Over-diagnosis on 10-12 September, 2013: Gilbert Welch and Peter Gotzsche from the NCI are speaking: see their website for details.
• 10008 – ChasUK
May 13, 2013 at 1:36 am
Fantastic Elizabeth, thank you so much for all your efforts….please write that book! I have seen that conference in September along my researching smear tests and also read often at the sense about science web. I knew there was something not quite right with paps/smears, always trust your gut insticts, if it doesn’t feel right then it isn’t right! Thanks everyone for continuing to comment, I read here ever day and also Sue’s site, just briliant to have found you all………you have all provided me (and many others) with so much info, support and relief, if not for this site I would have gone mad! Thank you!
• 10009 – JeanArt
May 13, 2013 at 6:20 am
Hex: I am in total agreement with your comments on the current trend in medicine. I also remember when going to the doctor was reserved for when one was sick, symptomatic, etc. and not for being checked when one was well. I still hold to that philosophy and realize that I am a dying breed. But in my opinion so many have bought into the current thinking because they are indeed the “worried well”. There is a huge amount of fear out there, fueled by the media and the medical establishment. And especially in women’s health. The way I see it is they are able to get women in for either birth control or pregnancy realted care and then they in essence have a captive audience. They are quite successful in winning over the vast majority of women once they get them in their offices; now you must come in every year to be checked to stay healthy, have those mammograms, PAP smears, pelvic exams, on and on. It would be funny if it wasn’t so depressing. I don’t see things changing any time soon either. If anyone even suggests scaling back on exams, screenings, etc. there is the big cry of rationing. Well, so be it. I will continue to listen to my instinct and enjoy my excellent health and save medical care for when I truly need it. Jean
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• 10010 – Sue
May 13, 2013 at 5:22 pm
Thank you for your excellent summary Elizabeth. I was part mesmerized, part horrified. Your bracketed additions were delightful also. Recently in B.C. there was an article in the paper about the gov’t silencing a drug researcher who had uncovered harmful side effects. This same gov’t is alleged to have accepted sizable political contributions from the drug company.
What is the purpose of research? Research is being cherry-picked/covered up/excluded/not done if it threatens to harm profits. Research has become a joke as its only purpose seems to be to convince people that drugs or procedures are being tried, tested, and are “safe”. Elizabeth your caution to be wary was very well received.
• 10011 – ADM (Canada)
May 14, 2013 at 8:28 am
Have you all heard about Angelina Jolie’s bilateral mastectomy to prevent breast cancer. The news said that she found out she had a gene that greatly increased her risk of getting breast cancer. Though I have compassion for her decision as cancer is scary and she has young children I also feel angry as this very public decision perpetuates the perception of women’s sex organs as just being precancerous things that should be removed. I like what Dr. Christiane Northrup said about it (taken from FB) “My quick take on the news of Angelina Jolie’s bilateral mastectomies: The vast majority of women who get breast cancer have NO genetic risk factors. Optimal levels of vitamin D decrease breast cancer risk by 50%. Far too many women are already getting prophylactic mastectomies for DCIS– which they will die with but not from. The combination of Jolie’s celebrity and the current fear of breast cancer is a most unfortunate situation for most women. And yes– there are instances in which prophylactic surgery is indeed a sound choice. But they are very very rare.”
• 10012 – Diane (US)
May 14, 2013 at 9:16 am
Okay, in Jolie’s case, she had the BCRA gene, which gave her about an 87% chance of getting breast cancer. Her mother died of BC at a very young age. Jolie wrote an article about it for the New York Times, and interestingly enough, she wasn’t saying “ladies, get your mammograms!” She was saying “yeah, was tested because I had a family history, found out I had this gene of death, dealt with it.”
So it sounds as though she was the rare instance in which prophylactic surgery WAS a sound choice. I hope people will take that away from her case; not that they have to get their breasts lopped off themselves.
• 10013 – Diane (US)
May 14, 2013 at 9:20 am
This is her article – I think she’s saying some good things here. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/opinion/my-medical-choice.html
• 10014 – Diane (US)
May 14, 2013 at 9:21 am
This is a good quote:
” For any woman reading this, I hope it helps you to know you have options. I want to encourage every woman, especially if you have a family history of breast or ovarian cancer, to seek out the information and medical experts who can help you through this aspect of your life, and to make your own informed choices.
I acknowledge that there are many wonderful holistic doctors working on alternatives to surgery.”